VrayRT price confusion

[DIGITAL_FACTORY]

Price Differences

We all know that it's difficult to make everyone happy, at least those of us who have to deal with customers. Some gripes are legitimate, some less so and Chaos is trying to deal with all of them.

While most of the posts in this thread have centered around "make it cheaper for Europe", I have been been pressing Chaos over the need to "make it cheaper for the emerging economies".

I used to have a company in Germany until 2002 - a long time ago by most standards. The average programmers made between 3000 and 3500 Euros a month. The good ones made a lot more. After Germany, I moved to Spain. There, I ran a few restaurants in Majorca. A waiter clear (take home) a minimum of 1500 Euros after taxes.

Cut. Change of scenery...

I now live in Costa Rica, which is probably the Latin American country with the highest wage structure. An excellent programmer clears around $800 a month. An average one between $400 and $500. An average 3D artist clears around $500 and $600. A very good one will make up to $750 a month. To complete the picture, a waiter makes around $300.

The economic structures of Latin American countries, as with most emerging economies, are simply different. Recently, we did a (monster) project for a developer. He had a written offer from renderings.com for $60.000. The only way for us to get the contract was to stay under $20.000, which we did and we got the contract.

For emerging countries, the current Chaos price structure is too high relative to the local economies. For Europe, the current prices are relatively cheap.

Life is full of such disparities and there are usually valid reasons for that.

For example, why are German cars cheaper in Belgium than they are in Germany, even though those cars are brought in from Germany? Why does the European Union force Costa Rica to grow bananas that look like those grown in the Canary Island befoe they can export them to Europe? (No, I'm not making this up)

Fact is that if Chaos expects to really penetrate the emerging markets, they will have to have different prices for the various parts of the world. If they cannot do that, the V-Ray market penetration will only consist of crack versions.

I am not sure that all issues have been carefully thought out by Chaos - in fact, I'm pretty sure they haven't - and I still have reservations about some of them. But, I can only agree with the goal of adjusting prices to the targeted economies.

In comparison, at current rates, it would cost the average 3D artist in Costa Rica more than a full month's wage to buy a V-Ray license. In most of Western Europe, it would amount to less than 40%. Although RT is cheaper, the principle is the same.

In real terms (in terms of bread and butter), V-Ray RT, though priced lower here, is effectively much more expensive than in Europe. An unemployed German laborer has a higher monthly paycheck than someone working two jobs in Costa Rica.

Microsoft does it. IBM does it. Dell and HP do it. Autodesk does it. Why should VRay not be allowed to do it?

At current rates, 249 Euros are $346.91. That's a $48 "penalty" over the $299, roughly 35 Euros. Peanuts, one would be tempted to say... Skip a visit to the movies once and you've saved that much. Or take the bus/train to work one week and you'll have saved twice that much.

In the end, though, there are three things that need to be remembered.

(1) Chaos owns the product and they have the right to establish policies for the benefit of their company. We all do it with our products, Why shouldn't V-Ray be able to do so?

(2) While a lot of folks are complaining over the 35 Euro difference for V-Ray RT, I haven't read a single complaint about Max 2010 costing $2500 in most emerging economies while it costs $3600 elsewhere. Why is it okay for Autodesk to do that but not Chaos Software?

(3) Why is it okay for Rebus to charge almost 3 times as much as we do for render farm services? All the while, we pay more for computers and electricity than they do. If we tried to charge more, our clients would say: "But you are in Costa Rica, you're supposed to charge a lot less..."

To close this post, I would enjoin all of us to count our blessings. However few they may seem to be, one can be sure others, somewhere, are worse off.

(Added: I forgot to mention that it costs us, on average, $30 to $40 more to ship dongles than within Europe. So the final price difference is not so great after all)

Best,
Bob Keen
remote-render.com

[trick]

...For emerging countries, the current Chaos price structure is too high relative to the local economies. For Europe, the current prices are relatively cheap....

A very nice story, but in my book hour pricing is set by cost of living, hardware, software. etc. and not the other way around: "This is the price MY clients can pay, so everything else should fit into that bill". In this global economy having a service that can be delivered by the internet, I think companies in countries with a low standard of living already have the "advantage" in offering lower pricing and will have all the means to find those clients with the bigger pockets. They may have to work harder to buy those expensive products, but then they just have to raise their prices a little bit more. This consequently leads to evening the global playing field in the next few decades. Furthermore I would like to hear the specific criteria you will handle setting a specific price for specific people!

[DIGITAL_FACTORY]

Trick,

How I wish that your theory were true! It would make none happier than me, honestly.

The problem with your theory is that clients who go to emerging economies for services go there expecting to pay less. And we are at a disadvantage because of the erroneous assumption that 3rd World is a synonym for lesser quality. So, while some clients may have big pockets, believe me, they do not come to fill ours. When dealing with economic realities, one seldom finds that level of altruism.

I can buy a Coke in most vending machines here for less than 50 cents. Is Coca-Cola out of their mind? Why would they do that? My guess is that they have chosen to have prices pegged to the local economy rather than sell... nothing. If you really think about it, it makes sense.

On the one hand, you disagree with me. At the same time, however, you unknowingly agree with me.

In general, V-Ray and V-Ray RT are not expensive products when compared to their competition. Several factors will play a role. One of them is certainly that as the Bulgarian plays catchup with the rest of Europe, they are able to produce cheaper than if they were located in London or Manhattan. Yet, I don't see anyone volunteering to pay more for V-Ray than the asking price. So, on the one hand it's okay to save money on a product coming from an emerging economy but it's not okay for emerging economies to pay a commensurate price. I would say it's a "want my cake and eat it too" syndrome.

You should also consider that your average, established US or European reseller has access to a much wider market. By virtue of their sales, they can attain higher discounts and special deals. Costa Rica has a population of around 4.5 million. How can sales reach the same levels as the US or Europe?

There is not question that Chaos' price policy is correct, economically speaking. Autodesk, Microsoft, HP, Dell and many others share that view.

I can understand that one may want to save 30 Euros. This saving, however, is only a perceived one, because if emerging economies didn't pay less and everyone would pay the same, there would be no saving to be had. Who would that help? Why should it pain you that others, in other countries, would pay 30 Euros less than you?

Late last year, at a government sponsored 3D conference in Bogotá, Colombia, the question of V-Ray licenses came up. None of the attendees had one and none planned on buying one anytime soon. The reason: too expensive. All were using V-Ray cracks. And those were Colombia's TOP 20... If your "big pockets" theory panned out, one would have to ask why they can't afford it?

As I said in my previous post, I do not agree with all of Chaos' policies, but this one, pun intended, is right on the money...

Best,
Bob Keen
remote-render.com

[trick]

...How I wish that your theory were true! It would make none happier than me, honestly...

It's not a theory, it's just based on some of my experiences. I know a real lot of companies in emerging economies that are doing very well. One of the early adapters (early 90's) in Colombia/Bogota, I think Vortex3D, actually did pretty well, although he/they may have left for another country. But if you are really talented and motivated this should not be a problem. The thing is that if you would offer products for much lower prices in these countries I would be an idiot if I did not outsource, and this would lead eventually again to much higher prices for the software since nobody in the more developed countries would buy the more expensive variants anymore

BTW: this is not about 30 euro

[DIGITAL_FACTORY]

Trick,

You're right, it's not about 30 Euros. I feel it's about the right of a company to freely sell it's products, at prices they feel are competitive.

You have that right. I have that right. Chaos has that right. You have, as I do, the right not to buy. But it helps no one to raise prices in certain parts of the world, who can least afford, so that some customers in Europe will feel better. If Chaos were the only company doing so, one could question the validity of the practice. But regional pricing is so common among international players, I doubt it will ever go away.

Besides, it just makes sense. Why should I not sell anything in, say, Ecuador or Uruguay if I can achieve some success by lowering prices in those countries?

You don't have to leave the comfort of your own country to see that such practices exist at all levels. Supermarkets in the same neighborhood may sell the same products at different prices.

When they do that, it's called being competitive.

I say we let Chaos be competitive.

Best,
Bob Keen
remote-render.com

[jujubee]

I bought from Vismasters at $299, noticed shipping and chose the lowest ground shipping for $10. Called them up, voicemail, then emailed them. They called me right back and refunded the shipping charges.

Good support and response too.

[DIGITAL_FACTORY]

You could have saved a bundle

[trick]

...I say we let Chaos be competitive...

Believe me, I would be the last saying Chaos should not be competitive. But I just think offering products for drastically lower prices to people who can not afford it is not the way to go. Actually I think VRay is one of the "cheapest" products in the Max arena: I'm almost using every renderer for Max (and more) and they ALL ask for upgrade prices. I even had to pay a fee for the Max2010 TreeStorm update while I just ordered the upgrade for the whole garden suite just a few months before that, so they just could have waited a few months to include this Max2010 plugin if they really made some effort. Why should people that can not afford certain software not just use cheaper software: Blender, Modo, Lightwave and some more are all very capable packages which in the right hands can give identical results. And you even don't need Dual Quad monsters to do it. The problem is that a lot of people START using the expensive software illegal, and then when they need it commercially they are complaining it's too expensive ?!?! This is so twisted ! Now if Chaos and Autodesk would do some "charity" and organize some competitions for users of the "cheaper" 3D softwares in "emerging" economies...that would be a different story ! And that would create good precedents and opportunities which I surely would applaude!

[deflix]

who cares about + or - 50euro's seriously for us in the west its penny pinching and embarrasing - my pet hate. Prices should be different around the world for the reasons as stated - I'm unclear why such obviousness is under debate? Any software developer that is insensitive to these realities or just plain greedy (of which chaosgroup is very much NOT), deserves all the piracy that can be summoned against them you all know to whom im referring. *cough* everyone upgraded their subscriptions yet?

[deflix]

Now if Chaos and Autodesk would do some "charity" and organize some competitions for users of the "cheaper" 3D softwares in "emerging" economies...that would be a different story ! And that would create good precedents and opportunities which I surely would applaude!

Dreamland dude - Adesk are destroying arch vis slowly and surely by witholding tech and sucking money as rapidly as they can because they know real-time is around the corner. Part of this modus operandi is to buy anything and everything decent so that this approach can be realised more efficiently - its a horrible company run by people with no interest at all in its user base, or the evolution of 3d. They are an embrassament to the industry and anyone with any history in 3d knows this all too well.

[mdi]

who cares about + or - 50euro's seriously for us in the west its penny pinching and embarrasing ?

your missing the point - it has nothing todo with the money, rather the unfairness of one contry getting it cheaper than another when the software and the developer sell the software over the net, which by definition is borderless.

As for Adobe/autodesk etc doing the same thing - to there defence (and its not much of a defence) they ship phisical items, which are subject to import duty, local taxes and other regonal costs. This is not the case for CG.

I really cant understand why people think its about the money though - you clearly have not read the thread, Im happy with the cost, infact I would happly pay £750 odd (as long as everyone else is paying £750) for the RT feature. So please dont assume Im bitching over a few ££/$$ because thats really not the case.