Outsourcing, cheap markets - ethics

Common Common :: Off-topic
21

pailhead:
taken from wikipedia

In economics, “dumping” can refer to any kind of predatory pricing. However, the word is now generally used only in the context of international trade law, where dumping is defined as the act of a manufacturer in one country exporting a product to another country at a price which is either below the price it charges in its home market or is below its costs of production. The term has a negative connotation, but advocates of free markets see “dumping” as beneficial for consumers and believe that protectionism to prevent it would have net negative consequences. Advocates for workers and laborers however, believe that safeguarding businesses against predatory practices, such as dumping, help alleviate some of the harsher consequences of free trade between economies at different stages of development (see protectionism). The Bolkestein directive, for example, was accused in Europe of being a form of “social dumping,” as it favored competition between workers, as exemplified by the Polish Plumber stereotype.

A standard technical definition of dumping is the act of charging a lower price for a good in a foreign market than one charges for the same good in a domestic market. This is often referred to as selling at less than “fair value.” Under the WTO Agreement, dumping is condemned (but is not prohibited) if it causes or threatens to cause material injury to a domestic industry in the importing country. [1]

…so…respecting the fact that countries such a s China, Russia, India etc r starting to grow economically…u just need to expect threats like these, its absolutely inevitable…so either u have to do something with your business to make it better and more competitive in a certain way or you may decide to leave the industry afterall…the choice is yours man.

best regards

Martin

22

Yes, but you can’t type in spot3d.com in your browser when you steal a mercedes in order to get it serviced.

23

So the first thing you’re supposed to do when you touch warez, is to obtain thousands and thousands of emails, and spam them with your flashy $10/h gifs?

Come on, a student using pirated software to learn and satisfy his craving passion is one thing. People using pirated software to make it hard for decent people is a whole other thing. And can you honestly say that it’s not harder now than it used to be?

I wouldn’t mind poor people using pirated software while keeping it local. Arch-viz people can’t afford software, architects and developers can’t afford renderings, it’s a compromise. But when you undercut honest people, in such an aggressive way, it’s really not fair.

If we say that half the price of a mercedes is its brand, and the other half the actual material cost, how much would you say that it costs to create an average rendering, withoug your labor?

@teabag

I don’t think that it’s “dumping” that we’re talking about. It’s more of a “steal from the rich and then sell it back to the less rich”.

I would be at ease if all the work coming from russia, india and china was done in blender with all it’s limitations (like the learning curve).

24

look pailhead…the standard price of a DTP hour in czech republic varies between 12 and 25 euros per hour…that depends on the size and name of the company

lets say, that one of those people thats charging tohse 12 euros is capable of building up the scene in 2 hours and rendering in another two…in total he would charge u lets say 35 euros (considered that he charges 1/2 price per hour for the rendering)…so thats two hours of work, another 2 hours waiting for render and doing something else…

do u find this sum way below the price u charge your clients or not?

25

That website you keep touting as the 10$ an hour is actually almost double what an US worker gets to work at walmart.
And it is above what i happened to gain doing some jobs over the net, even from some based in the US.
And if you look in the career section, you’ll see they leverage on freelancers.
So it may not be a company at all, in the strict sense of the word.
They may not have an office, or a software license, but rather outsource themselves to freelancers around the world.
The 10$ an hour may have plenty of strings attached, and may levitate to well something else by the end of a proper quote.

With the risk of repeating myself: companies which use pirated software to make buck are to be prosecuted by law.
Still, what you’re proposing is that CG be elitarian.
I can’t see how someone with a 200$ a month wage should save for ten years to buy max and vray.
And it boils, again, down to the mechanics set in place by the west.

It keeps sounding more and more, to me, as if competition is good if you win, bad if you lose.
It’s fine to pay chinese (indian, pakistani, italian, even…) people pennies a day when you buy their products cheap, but if they want to do CG, they HAVE to buy the software which is targeted for a VERY different market, where people spend in beer, night in, night out, what those people there gain in a day.
It has to hold both ways.

It’s because most of our hardware comes from chinese Fabs that we pay so little for it (whatever makes up to the final price is MOSTLY down to the maker hefting up on it, not the production cost/labor cost).
Ask IBM personal computer who Lenovo is.
After 20 years of leveraging on their cheap labor, how could they complain about lenovo turning around and buying them off?
While they might have, the result changed little: they were bought off.
And i can’t say i was unhappy, tbh.

Me, i personally dig competition, EVEN if i lose out, as it’s going to push me further into bettering my skills and finding radical ways of proposing myself unto the market.
And if it all goes to shite, IKEA is just around the corner, they’ll sure always need people to lift loads.

Lele

26

perfectly said studioDIM :wink:

me personaly…i know loads of CG artist who started with pirate software…and when they have finally worked their way out and made enough money, they bought the soft…and i dont blame them at all!!!

look at autodesk…the amount they charge for product such as max is a daytime robbery (considering all the bugs it has that have never been fixed)…who could afford such thing from start…u cant even use leasing companies to buy software…so sometimes (in certain countries and economic conditions) the only way to work your way up is to take some illegal steps…and once u there its payback time…u have to go legal and buy all the stuff that u have used to make bucks…if all this takes one freelancer a year for example…then fine…those large soft companies dont loose that much waiting a year for someone to make their soft usage legal.

27

You’re twisting my words.

All i’m saying is that i doubt that anyone who advertises in those emails wants to save, or is capable of saving to buy legit software with the rates that they charge.

Anyway, i’ve heard enough. I just wanted to test the water, it’s good to know that while other people are trying to protect their professions, we are totally ok with running ours to the ground.

I just hope that you understand what you just said Lele. One minute you’re calling yourself an artist, the other you’re comparing yourself to assembly workers.

28

i just think there is no need to panic whatsoever…pailhead if u run out of jobs in US (or wherever u r from) simply fish in different waters…there is jobs everywhere…and if for some reason youre fed up with being freelance…get yourself employed in some CG company…the pay is great and if youre talented enough, htere are massive opportunities waiting for u everywhere

29

Pailhead, the difference between the two is indeed small.

When working within a team of artists, to produce a piece of art, paid properly, and with enough time given to accommodate for superior quality, i consider myself an artistic character.
When i am given a model with a deadline of 24 hours, and 100$ to make it happen, i consider myself LESS than a factory worker, whether the request comes from the US, the UK, Italy or China.

In the end, it’s what i enjoy doing that defines me, not labels and tags.
If needs be, to survive, i can sure go lift boxes at IKEA.
I ain’t that sweet a palate.

Lele

30

I don’t really understand, there really is NOTHING that we can do about it, one way or the other. Software piracy will exist indefinitely, and the leveling of the global economy would be the decimation of so many muti-nationals’ profit margins, so there’s a lot of money behind keeping the status quo for as long as possible.

But I really don’t see this being as huge a problem as folks are afraid it will be. All it takes for a company to swear off outsourcing is one disaster that costs them. It’s hard to find companies that can consistently make deadlines and respond to all the client demands. I’m sure some firms have found cheap outlets for this stuff, but many more are out there trying and failing and going to present buildings to owners with horrible imagery if nothing at all. And then they’re risking THEIR reputation.

Maybe if I felt the tide turning the other way I’d be more desperate, but at this point I don’t want to work for anyone who thinks it’s normal to pay $500 for renderings and animations that take a month’s worth of man-hours to produce. They’re ALWAYS going to be unhappy with us, and they don’t care if our images look better because we’re so damned expensive. So I say let them play with fire and put their presentation of a 20 million dollar development project in the hands of someone they can only Skype or email. That’s their own foolishness, and I know given how stressful and demanding it is to perform well in this industry, that it will one day come back to bite them.

'nuff said for me. Good chat, everyone. This is really an issue I like to keep tabs on how the folks here feel about.

Shaun

31

I don’t understand. Are you suggesting that we do something? I haven’t really seen your suggestions. I would normally suggest writing your congressman if it really upsets you. I doubt it will have much effect.

32

guys look at the range of rates in the U.S. Hourly rates for 3D visuals can range anywhere from $40/hour to over $120/hour. there are alot of reasons why the $40/hour guy isn’t stealing business from the $120/hour guy. mainly i think it has to do with reputation. also i think there are certian sectors of CG that are just plain immune to factors like outsourcing. if you can consistently satisfy your clients, and make it clear to them that you will go above and beyond the competition in order to get the job done, then you should have nothing to worry about.
this thread seems to paint a gloomy outlook for the industry. i for one see nothing but opportunity. you can make a nice living in this business. it really bugs me to hear of artists who are more talented than myself struggling financially. perhaps its time to move to a different market? i know thats easier said than done :slight_smile:
lele brought up an interesting point about how he has stay on the cutting edge in order to be compettive. in the back of my mind i always tended to think that there was more talent overseas than in the U.S. nothing against us americans, its just a general observation of mine. it may be because alot of the arch viz artists i know personally tend to only know enough to get by. yet they all make a nice living.
if i were in the arch viz business i wouldn’t worry about the $10/hour indian. i’d worry about the $40/hour italian who just setup shop in anytown USA.
just my $.02
-joe

33

damn italians! Somebody get the pitchforks!! :lol:

34

this is a gloomy outlook, even dreadful. thankfully green cards are not that easy to get :smile:

35

Italians? :wink:

IMHO, if we are going to generalize, the Chinese are the best followed closely by the Russians a lot of great artists everywhere though. :smile:

36

Can’t beat the italian mate.
40$ an hour, mozzarella cheese pizza included.
Oh, and if asked, they make offers “you can’t refuse” :lol:

Lele

37

I don’t understand. Are you suggesting that we do something? I haven’t really seen your suggestions. I would normally suggest writing your congressman if it really upsets you. I doubt it will have much effect.

I’d just like to hear everyone say “using pirated software in order to undercut the market IS WRONG!” instead of justifying it with a sob story and saying that we can always lift boxes in IKEA.

Thats really, the only thing that I’d like to see.

38

I haven’t seen anyone here say it ISN’T wrong. They might be giving what they think are reasons why people do it, and that those people aren’t necessarily bad people, but its wrong no doubt about it. I learned 3dsmax from a cracked copy. I always knew that one day I would get a job using it where the studio DID purchase each and every license. No access to cracked copy? Autodesk would be out a license, plain and simple. I would have gone another route professionally.

39

I took a max class at a community college and the teachers were telling us where we could get cracks.

40

When I was at college in Savannah we had programmers from Alias|Wavefront come speak. When asked how they felt about the easy availability of cracked copies of Maya on campus, they replied “well, our lawyers will tell you different, but for as long as you’re in school we rather you learn our product through any means necessary.”

No one here is going to argue that profiting off the use of pirated software is anything but immoral and illegal. But it’s a fact of life that has to be expected, and we’re just explaining how we cope with the reality, not justifying it.

Shaun