Outsourcing, cheap markets - ethics

Common Common :: Off-topic
61

i agree about not accusing anyone cheap and fast for using pirated softwares. but you see. vray istelf cost us around S$1200/- left alone max, autocad and photoshop. and those softwares i persume is basic needs for “a good batch of visual”. in business, there is what we called turnover, luckily you get all coming back to you in a year. that is if your price is “normal”. if your price is way down low, like 1/10th of the usual normal market price, you get 10 years to get it back. and this is totally not a good sign. would anybody invest S$30 000 for software and hardware, and work like hell, and get the money back in 10 years?i guess not.and mind you, computer hardware obsoletes in 2 years time. so does software. so by the time they get those S$30 000 dollars back, they are going to spend it on a new hardware-software and roll for another torturing 10 years. these people are good business people. they won’t do that. they are way too clever for that, i know. i am part of their blood. so there is no way they can lay their hands on original softwares (well i don’t really give a crap about that). and if these people can’t get out of their “mass production” mindset, and start apprceciating themselves for the art that they are producing, whether it’s pirated software or not (again, i don’t give a rat’s ass about it) and not destroying the market, i will keep my mouth shut.
     but no, they keep on lowering the price until the market dies, and start to kill another market. trust me, i know. these are fast learning people with a market destroying capability in their hands. if they keep on doing this, they will die, and drag us all (in asia) with them. i guess, i am gonna have to spread my wings, and get as much as i can as for the moment and find other business, or move to london :wink: . don’t really know how long this business will last as a descent money generator, but i have a gut feeling, that it will die someday, that as the softwares are getting user friendlier each and everyday, tutorials are everywhere, hardware are way cheaper than last time i remember, all you need is just a mere S$3000, some pirated cds, and determination, a little bit of artistic background, and you set to go. how many people have these factors? many. way too many. hopefully they don’t spread to europe and us, because of language barrier. but you know what? they are freakin fast learner.
     this is not the only sector that they destroyed recently. you know why USA reject the prawns importer from China? because american fishermans will die. the price is insanely cheap, it will put american fishermans out of business.
     this is the country for mass production. you know Clarks shoes? now it’s made in china. 2 years ago, when it’s still made in England, i can walk so far, yet felt comfortable. now? not anymore. sore feet.
xbox 360? made in china. broken for 4 times, need 4 service, i stop playing.
     nike? made in china. stitches came out in 3 months.i threw them away
     sony? made in china. *some are made in malaysia, way better.

you guys if you are born in the 70’s or before, you will notice, there was a time, when things made in germany rules. at least this is what happened in asia. made in germany : no 1 quality. made in japan : quality no 4. made in taiwan: low quality. now taiwan made products are consider good quality, because germany, japan and other 1st world country stopped producing. i just wish it will happen to china, someday, that they will bring the standard up, start appreciating themselves and others…
     will that happen? i doubt it. you know why? they have 1.5 billions heads over there. and growing. for that kind of competition, maybe for them it’s not about bringing quality higher, but to show your client how desperate you are to get money. how low can you go? quality is another issue. but low cost is always an issue. that’s why all the countries move their production to china. quality? hell no. because it’s dirt cheap. i may sound insulting, well, i am. dirt cheap.

62

by the way teabag, $20 in the east is still 20. not more :wink:
edit: we are still buying 3dmax from autodesk, no special price in asia.

63

thats true dominique, but ask that people in some former soviet countries…how much is 20 bucks worth.

i am sure that devoted and organized and marketing/economically thinking people in 3d business will find their way to keep their businesses running…as someone said here in this post..i think it was studioDIM…there r other fields in 3d industry u can start doing, its not just archviz, there r so many advertising agencies hungry for 3d, web is becoming more and more 3d…(just think how many sites r outthere to convert :))…dont panic guys…and dont u even think about quiting your jobs or anything else…youre too good to think about it!!!..future of 3d industry and archviz in particular lies in speed, service, quality communication and flexibility to resolve things on the spot if needed…should chinese take over…?..that wont happen b4 we die :slight_smile:

maybe i think like this as i live in europe and i dont feel such an impact of the chinese 3dafia as u pailhead and dominique :))))))) no offence …just joking…:)…i dont know..i am just not afraid of 3d industry being dead soon for the “westerners”

64

and i also think we should leave this topic and focus on problems section instead perhaps? :)…or render theory?

PS: by the way…if u consider that this forum is free to read for every warez monkey, no wonder they get better day by day

65

all you need to do is register bro, and you are free to read. not post, just read. but that’s enough ain’t it?

66

yep…kinda sad if u consider how many topics and problems get sorted here…no wonder that warez monkeys can get better if they have the source so easily accessible :frowning:

67

I think the point that is being missed here is the cost of labor. In the US, at least, the most expensive part of my rig is me. I am paid a “fair” wage for the work I do in the area I do it. If my firm could find a market that pays 10X what we currently chare, you bet your bippy, they would do it. This is the situation that a lot of firms in china are facing. They can charge sub US prices and pay above average salaries to their artists and look like heroes to their American clients and their Chinese employees. There are even visualization firms based in the US setting up shops in china to handle production while the market a sometimes superior product at a very competitive price. If I could live on $100/month then my firm would adjust my salary downward along w/ their prices and get more work but sadly I live here and to retain my services they have to pay a competitive wage for the area.

I’m not saying that this is good or bad but it is the reality of the situation. Yes, software piracy is an issue, but when you have smart, talented people who can work for $5/hr the market will find a way to use that labor. Until world markets even out the playing field then I will have to find the clients that haven’t figured out that out sourcing is an option, make my work so valuable that a client can’t think of not using me or change the direction of my carrier. As it is I have seen the focus of my work change from finished renders to speed charrett modeling and animation. If I can go to a clients office, sit w/ him face to face and bang out good product in a week I have a service that is unique in the industry and can’t be duplicated by an off shore firm for $5/hr. But I’d be damned if I told any of my competition about this service…. Damn

Oh well
mike

68

Yeah but if this forum was locked to all but paying customers, I probably wouldnt be doing this for a job now - I was due to go and do a course in music, but spent 6 months dicking around with vrayfree first and changed my mind. As it happens, another license of vray was bought and i’d imagine it wont be the last.

It goes both ways, although I do admit its fairly skewed.

69

Ask people in moscow how much is it worth! Moscow is the most expensive city in the world. Ask people in Belgrade (where this guy is from) how much 20 bucks are worth, and you’ll get the answer that it’s not a lot. MAX costs 5000 euros there, food, gas, computers everything except the rent is way more expensive than in the US, and even most of the western Europe. But people will still charge 20 bucks per render.

I for a fact do know that the freelancer above uses warez. Not only that, he doesn’t even use his own computers, he works for a robust goverment agency where they generally don’t do much work, so he has access to dozens of computers. He does not pay for electricity, office space, computers, software, he simply kills time there, instead of slacking he earns a bit of cash by rendering.

I think you should thank God that he was constrained to a local market. It’s a practice even Indians would hate.

70

Why are you so sure, those are being outsourced even as we speak. We’re not the only ones who can learn different things, and I’m an architect, I want to stick with architecture.

71

:lol:

That is, a bit of a problem.

72

But again, both software and hardware cost the same. Your rent and food might be cheaper, but your software and hardware might be even more expensive. It’s not like if only businessmen were capable of seting up cheap production shops in India, by investing lots of money in software and hardware but then employing people for $5/h. Anyone can set up a bogus company with a couple of friends and bunch of warez and compete.

73

When you think about it, it really isnt.

I think the CG architect articles would be more of a help than this forum, and dont forget the completley public spot3d ‘bible of vray’ - which does actually cover pretty much everything, with examples.
Everything here is pretty specific stuff, and most of the issues solved are large scale ones.

74

well, guys, i think there is no solution for this at the moment, i am just glad there are people who share the same burden i carry over here, glad that got out of my chest.

and i as i think after i read those replies, cubiclegangster, you are correct. before i purchased my vray, i came to this and saw and interested. so, you are correct. i am not interested in maxwell, or fryrender, or brazil, or any of those. all recommendation goes to vray.

so i think i better push myself to a better service, and speed, and quality, in order to maintain the market price. hopefully i don’t get burned.

good luck guys,
all the best.

75

U ask for a global price tag…yet life cost varies as much as sun incidence worldwide!thats just insane!
tell me do architects here in portugal charge as much as in the US, or as in russia?if not even the fuel price is managed to be the same worldwide, please tell me how can it be done for archviz?
have u even heard whats been said till now?this thread tittle is very distant by now…no ethics nor outsorcing problems r been argued here anymore…ur just complainig at a fact everybodys facing everywhere, and u have (probbably a better profit in the end of the year than i) yet presented no feseable solutions…:roll:

absolutelly…now slip on his shoes an try to make a living out off that!
he s just behaving like the market demands…he cuts on the cost to increase sales…imHo

76

Outsource

I can’t say I read all that was written under this thread, but I scanned through most everything. I am always aware of what others are charging and I have to continue to educate myself on the latest technology to get the job done better and faster… hence my move to VRAY. I am now modeling everything in Revit, which allows me to model 3X as fast. Luckily I can still charge full price, but I am prepared to lower my rates if I have to, but I will not allow myself to loose money and family time.

We have to face it that we work in a global market and the work we do is virtual. I think the key is having a relationship with out clients and educating them. Most if the guys I work for are professionals and understand the marketplace. I modeled this in one day using Revit and I’ll use VRAY for the staging (light and textures) I am charging $800 for it.

77

You have to charge what you need to make to survive. You have to know your operating costs and then you charge what you can to get by. My expenses here at home are different than they would be if I worked in NY or if I had an office in addition to my home.

This whole thing reminded me of the local artist who did watercolor renderings for many firms here. He charged $100-200 per image for a full 48"X36" watercolor rendering. If you wanted changes he would just paint over the image. I could never compete with him. And yet the first watercolor render I met (10 years ago) charged $100 per hour. And architects were fine paying $1000-2000 per image. These are American artists competing against each other and both seem to be successful. Both are in California and I cannot really say that one was better than the other. Now I don’t know who made more money and I don’t know that both took the same amount of time for projects.

Hell I am going to buy the next Harry Potter do I buy it at Borders for $17 or the local bookshop for $35?