Hi, I’ve posted here before, usually asking for advice or solutions, and this is no exception. I’m an architect, and I’ve essentially brought 3D modelling and rendering to my firm about a year ago when I started. With Vray the quality of my renderings skyrocketed from just using the default scanline renderer, but I think I’ve plateaud, and I could really use some direction from those of you who have really become experts in digital illustration.
I have been doing the vast majority of my modelling in AutoCAD (it’s familiar and I can count on the accuracy of our base plans) but I’ve started getting better at making furniture and other non-orthagonal objects using MAX (slowly…) anyways, I really think that I need to learn better how experts create and use materials in Vray as well as better ways to light interier scenes. I read every link I can find, but I still don’t understand how you professionals create such lifelike materials with great variations of tone. I’ve played with the procedural maps, but I just can’t recreate anything decently. So… can anyone recommend an awesome resource for material creation specifically for Vray? Or do I just need to start from scratch and learn MAX’s procedural maps first and then learn to use them within Vray? I would also like to better understand the science behind all the different GI calculations (the help file only mystifies me more.)
I know this is asking a lot, but any advice would be great. I just don’t understand how you guys/gals have become so knowledgeable (is it just from experience?). Any advice/suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
Current rendering project using newly aquired Vray 1.5.
the thing for me, is I basically learned to use vray to light and render stuff, well before I even got a job doing it. So I had ALL the time in the world to inefficiently learn buttons, techniques etc. That basically gave me a pretty good all around knowledge. Also haunting for forums for years now has helped quite alot.
yeah, I’m pretty lucky that i get paid to work and learn this at the same time. that being said though, i feel like i really need to learn the right techniques and understand why this software is so great (beyond the fact that Vray just makes my stuff look better. Magic?) I want to learn the theory and the practical stuff, but it’s pretty damn overwhelming. Thanks for the input. Take it easy.
In terms of general lighting and material advice, just keep practicing and observing. I find it helps to flip through the architectural publications to see how architectural photographers represent space.
Also, to really improve quickly, it helps to be doing visualization full-time (as opposed to visualizing half-time, and doing door schedules the other half). And try to stop modeling in CAD. Modeling natively will eventually be faster, and will help you to better think like the program. Just import the CAD drawings and model off them in Max. I started doing this in about '98 (at Chris Nichols insistence) and have never regreted it.
Specifically regarding procedural maps, while they are a good starting point, I recommend rendering them to textures via UVW unwrap and texture baking. You can then “paint” into them to introduce variations and anomalies, such as stains, water damage, cracks and graffiti. Then you can re-apply them to the geometry.
Also, along similar lines, you may have noticed that certain procedural textures do not properly “fall off” perspectivally. When using a cellular map for say a terrazzo floor, the level of detail does not decrease as it should as it recedes from the camera. But if you render to texture and re-apply it looks correct.
Also for lighting, I highly recommend Chris Nichols DVDs (hehe, two plugs in one post ). Not only for lighting, but for how he textures his geometry. You can see that he paints into his textures for greater realism. Oh, and also the biggest thing I learned from his exteriors DVD was to add a bit of glossy reflection to almost every surface.
okay, great! i will definitely try the DVD’s and see if I can start doing an entire scene within MAX (If I could manage that, then I would definitely have pushed my skill level to a new stratosphere.) thanks man. I appreciate it.
Maybe I understood from A to Z what Marshall_Craft said and I totally agree (and maybe I feel something similar). For me this journey with Vray had being clearly sweet and sour at the same time. I do better renderings thanks to Vray but 65% or so I don’t understand where it comes from. I know a lot of people may dismiss my own abilities to perform with this magnificent piece of software even though I’m slashing off 65% the credit from myself!, I know other people may think I’m just lucky but I’m just trying to do is to be honest with me on what I really know and honest with everyone, but most important, I’m not trying to fool around with my way of living, and that’s it, just trying to stay focus.
I already purchased, saw and exercised with Chris Nichols DVDs, they are great, no doubt about it but there you only can deduct what something like subdivision is, not the full theory inside and that is what I am looking to learn but I don’t know where to look! and just experimenting trial and error it will be very slow then reading and learning from complet examples.
I want to learn what are the limits for some things in Vray, for example, some explanations are very detailed in the help web page but other explanations just lack of detail, where one can get those details? In depth? I haven’t be successful neither with the forum nor in other places, ok, I agree, in the forum I do find a big resource of information and more than that, great kind people but some information is just not reliable. For instance, It was very hard, really hard! to find out what was the problem with black holes or black splotches. The information finally was there but certainly was as harder than finding a needle in a haystack. One search even suggested one was using a cracked version! and at last I found what a wrong falloff setup can do on that matter. One check box, just that, one wrong check box but two days trying and trying.
great post, you and I are in very much the same boat. I’m 34, an architect, and have been on AutoCad for 14 years now. So, no matter how much someone tells me to model in Max for Arch viz, I won’t believe it. Booleans, movement, accuracy are just so much easier in Acad for someone that has worked extensively in architecture. That said, I also have tried to pick up a max modeling tutorial here and there, to learn all the non-orthagonal shapes. I have learned to file-link my acad models into a max file, where I keep all the rest of the non-arch shapes.
I too have a very difficult time creating great materials and lighting in vray. Vray does seem to make life a lot easier, but there are many subtleties that I think, as someone posted above, only a full-time renderer will pick up. That’s why I have no problem buying pre-made models, asking for material settings, etc. I chose awile back to be an architect primarily, and decided that the modeling would be just one of my tools (albeit a fun one).
I think many of the renderings we see here from some of the very skilled 3d people, become almost like an art/photo composition. They have successfully composed the angle, lighting, subject, and peripheral objects to be a solid graphic representation of what they want to communicate. Although I’m an ok architect, I know I’m in no way a skilled photographer or artist the way I think some of these 3d guys are.
One thing that may well help us, is to have some skilled renderers give some bullet points, or simple outline of how they picked, composed, lit and rendered some of their successful shots.
The WIP critique forum over at CGarchitect is an invaluable tool too.
great post, you and I are in very much the same boat. I’m 34, an architect, and have been on AutoCad for 14 years now. So, no matter how much someone tells me to model in Max for Arch viz, I won’t believe it. Booleans, movement, accuracy are just so much easier in Acad for someone that has worked extensively in architecture.
I’ll second that. I started modeling with acad 2000 back in high school and I still use it today. It falls into the “if it aint broke dont fix it category” for me. Its a highly efficient modeler. Its like when you see a seasoned 2d drafter using cad…they’re usually going a hundred miles an hour entering commands and clicking rapidly. This is what happens when I get in the zone modeling in cad and I’ve never been able to get to that level of speed/accuracy using max modeling.(i’ve given max a fair chance i think) The reason its so much faster is the command line interface. Its so much easier to implement modeling processes this way as opposed to pointing and clicking your way through in max.
That being said cad has its drawbacks. If were to get asked to model the Bilbao Guggenheim for example, I’d choose max to do that.
-joe
yeah, i think Gehry gave up on CAD and started with crumpling napkins awhile back (i can’t remember if that’s a rumor or if i actually read it in an article.) I do agree that it’s extremely hard for me to believe that someone could model more quickly AND accurately in max than in AutoCAD, but as you guys have said CAD has its limitations (furniture, organics, wicked creatures, etc.) I will never do this full time, but I would love to have a better understanding of how these amazing artists model, texture, and light their scenes.
See, I believe my firm will only ask me to do more photo-realistic stuff for designs that are finalized or are almost there. For everything else, SketchUp is much more useful (albeit we are not designing any titanium clad used-Kleenex-shaped museums…ehem.) So, does anyone know of any tutorials that would, say, go through the steps of using UVW unwrap (if that’s what professionals use) and carry it into Photoshop and then reapply it and scale it correctly? See, I feel like I need to learn MAX, Vray, AND Photoshop better to get to the next level, and I can’t find enough information on how the best artists work between everything. anyways, thanks for the helpful responses. Later.
- Alex
oh yeah, i’ll spend some more time at CGarchitect. i found Nichols’ DVD’s there, but only 1 or 2 Vray/MAX tutorials i believe.
i don’t know, guys. i came from an architecture / autocad background, became a very fast drafter, and learned to model originally in autocad. but i was gradually forced to model in max as i started to work with renderers and i have NEVER looked back. i liken modeling in autocad to trying to build a cardboard model while blindfolded. max can be very fast and very accurate when you learn how to model with it properly. not to mention, it will absolutely expand your creativity.
i feel that command line slows you down. program your shortcut keys in max, that with your ctrl and alt and mouse buttons, and the only pointing you’ll be doing is when you are creating your shapes.
you know, switching to modeling in max is pretty similar to switching from scanline to vray. bit of a pain at first, but the rewards and potential so far outweigh the frustration.
but hey, we’re getting off topic…
…and just to add, boolean command was very limeted in Max since always, in the mean time I bought nPower tools plugins, and they are great help. Not to mention, that customer support is the best in the World! (they changed software according to my inputs, even made tutorial according to my problem)
Good news for Max users. Power Boolean is part of the 3DS Max 9 ; so you are not “limeted” with boolean’s anymore 8)
the problem I’ve had with Max and shortcuts and the lack of the command line, is that in Acad, I have many many left hand macros that involve 1, 2 or 3 keys, then the spacebar for ‘enter’. With just my left hand on the keyboard, and right on the mouse, I can whip off almost any command very quickly and continuously. Max seems to be limited to just simple 1 key commands, unless you want to go for the cntrl-D, etc, combos which are obviously a bit slow. Acad 07 has some new 3d abilities that allow even greater speed in getting around.
The accuracy factor is still what gets me the most though. Being able to quickly enter units, and draw/modify objects using the Base Point system in Acad is very precise. BUT, I realize that most of the Max full time users are not creating arch-viz content, where this sort of accurate system would be needed, or even useful.
I suppose another thing that really bothers me, is that if they have the same owner/parent company, and enable things like file-linking, purposely steering acad users to use max, why cant the scripters find some sort of middle ground, like having a base point oriented system in Max for us full time Acad users. Oh well.
I am a 37 year old architect who has been using Acad for 14 years (I think I started on Acad 9?) and 8 years ago I switched to modeling in Max. I do arch/viz modeling full-time and I am certain I can model at least 3x faster in Max than Acad.
I was put off at first by the hotkey macros, unlike Acad where you can bury 200 commands in your left hand. But I’ve learned in the time it takes to type in “e”, “x”, “t”, and right-click to activate (my) extend command in Acad, I can already have extended the line in Max (click on spline, sub-object hotkey, cycle to spline sub-object via hotkey, and extend hotkey).
I suppose its all about what you commit to work in. The real reason I suggest to my students they stop modeling in CAD (or Rhino) is not for immediate modeling speed, but for the longer-term efficiency of working natively. Native geometry is more likely to be clean, it has UVW coordinates, and there is no import/export process. Also, by working in one program 10-12 hours a day, you learn to think like the program (becoming “one” with the program, i.e. cyborgism) and you are more able to get it to do what you want. I think this really helps when it comes to creating convincing materials and lighting.
Thread HIJACKERS!!! just kidding; this has been really interesting and helpful for me (a newuser as of a year ago) to read the conversation between CAD and MAX proponents.
Repenseks, I checked out the links for the DVD’s and they seem to be EXACTLY what I was hoping for. So, thanks.
I guess my inexperienced two cents would be that I wish MAX had the ability to accept more of a 2D drafting approach as a way to start creating base polylines (splines in MAX i guess,) I find the attach--> trim method rather cumbersome after drafting in CAD for a few years. But then again, you guys kinda lost me with all the macro talk; it sounds like you all have become assimilated into the computer interface itself; kinda scary, but impressive! anyways, that’s my 2 1/2 cents.
Acad highly improve speed with macro commands using lisp programs, very easy to implement, also you can use keyboard software to build serious macro commands much more complex and powerful. The ability in Acad resides in the graphics architecture, in the visualization speed switching views very very fast without expensive graphics adapters. I just can tell from Acad side, I had tried some architectural modeling in Max but I need more understanding to improve my speed there, sometimes is frustrating and embarrassing not be capable to exploit the full power in Max.
Not to nitpick, but I’ve got my ACAD extend command set to 'ET" (every keystroke counts ). I count 4 clicks or keys for your method: click on Spline, press hotkey (you can go directly to spline even), press extend hotkey, click on the spline again. This is assuming the line you are extending to is part of the spline, otherwise you’ll have to attach it (another couple clicks at least) so it could be as many as six clicks. In acad it’s 5 clicks (for me at least): “E”, “T”, (Space Bar) twice to select everything, and click the line to extend. However I can extend to whatever I want to whatever I want, I’m not limited to a single line/spline/pline. I can hold down “shift” to trim in the same command as well without exiting. I can select lines to extend via fences, windows.
I’m not bashing Max for modeling but ACAD has a lot of advantages in certain areas over max, and vice versa. Yes, not everything is modelable (is that word?) in cad but I find that a large portion of the arch/viz stuff I do works well in cad and linked to MAX/VIZ.
The real reason I suggest to my students they stop modeling in CAD (or Rhino) is not for immediate modeling speed, but for the longer-term efficiency of working natively. Native geometry is more likely to be clean, it has UVW coordinates, and there is no import/export process. Also, by working in one program 10-12 hours a day, you learn to think like the program (becoming “one” with the program, i.e. cyborgism) and you are more able to get it to do what you want. I think this really helps when it comes to creating convincing materials and lighting.
I agree with you on this but I am yet to see any good tutorials on precise, efficient, arch modeling in max. I don’t want to model a cell phone or a character, etc. and this is unfortunatley what most of them are. The workflow for a building just seems so different from these things. I need to be able to DRAW a precise shape in max (such as a cornice) without setting up snaps, grids, etc. I just can’t see how to do this (am I missing something?) and as such I’ll stick with ACAD…for now .
Its like when you see a seasoned 2d drafter using cad…they’re usually going a hundred miles an hour entering commands and clicking rapidly. This is what happens when I get in the zone modeling in cad and I’ve never been able to get to that level of speed/accuracy using max modeling.(i’ve given max a fair chance i think) The reason its so much faster is the command line interface. Its so much easier to implement modeling processes this way as opposed to pointing and clicking your way through in max.
; so you are not “limeted” with boolean’s anymore 8)