Anybody interested in sharing render fees?

[@krembo99]

I charge about 50 Euros per hour ....
modelling & render included ...

[metroberlin]

we don´t take money per hour, but per day. normaly we take between 350-800€ a day, depending on the project....and a bit how much the client can pay. but all in all i think we have the same prices and profit like tom schuelke said. but it´s not that easy at the moment in germany. especially when you mainly do architectural pics. i´m sure "lichtecht" know what i´m talking about....there is no work for architects at the moment and that means less work for us. but hey, mabye times will get better and we are opening our minds for new markets at the moment

[cocolas]

metroberlin,
you guys should look for international clients...like land/commercial developers and product developers, rather then just architects and designers.
They would probably have more money to spend on viz work as well as bring you more work in....

paul.

[tom schuelke]

Hi Cocolas

of course thats exactly the problem.

well after finshing studys, for shure you have most of your connections in the area you studied.

it´s difficult to find those companies. and to get a first chance. especialy in germany at the moment. where lots of companys in the last 3 years have given up, so that lots of 3D people are looking for jobs.

we hope, Quality and service will do it someday, but its a hard beginning. especially when you didn´t have any private money at all for the start.

Well lets hope for the future.

[cocolas]

yeah, i think that's the same situation w/ jobs all across Europe ......
but hoepfully your quality will be noticed as you make connections w/ clients......
you almost need a full time person that does marketing a goes job hunting for clients...

paul.

[flipside]

Hi,

I find it pretty weird that all you guys get paid per image instead of per project. If I were you're client, and I would ask you to make 10 renders of 3 different rooms inside the same house, and you told me it's 1500€ per image I would really laugh! The additional effort for 2nd or 3th image of the same room is almost zero, so how to explain that equal cost?

I would think of the following ratio:
1 render of room1 in 1 house: for example 1500€
2nd render of the same room in the same house: 300€ 'everything is present, the only thing to do is turn the camera...)
etc..
1 render of room2 in the same house: 1000€ (house is already modeled)
2nd render of room2 in same house: 300€
etc...
1 render of a room in a second house: 1500€
etc...
And then if they want lots of images/houses give gradually discounts.

Of course you could add up the whole project cost, divide it by the number of images and tell the client it's XXX€ per image, but I think clients are more happy with the other approach, no?

In the last few months I did some visualisations for product designers. 1 was a design one made for a competition, where he needed to make a presentation of the design. I modeled the whole thing (many different objects), rendered every object and rendered several photo montages. I got one price for the project, and double if the project would win. If I would have charged for every single image (+-25 images, of which 12 photomontages), I needed to get 25*1000€=25000€. I did the project in one week! No product designer can spend 25000€ on a project like that! The amount I got was way way less, and I was lucky the project won! What I'm trying to say is that if people could pay me the rates you charge, I would be a millionnaire soon. 25000€ in one week, would be great! Maybe I work really fast, but in one full 40-50h week you could easily do a full viz of a house with several rooms, interior and exterior views, no? Some time ago I modeled our house, needed to measure everything by hand, making materials, modeling furniture, lighting, etc... I did it in 1 week, while I was still learning Vray and max, on a P3-800Mhz.

Of course I understand that many times you need to handle constantly changing wishes of the client.

Can some of you try to estimate work time on typical projects? Don't know how, maybe a typical family house visualization where you get 2d plans from the customer?

Regards,

flipside

[tom schuelke]

Yes that would be fantastic.

And of course, we (we started our company with 4 people, and we are still 4 people expect of mr fantstic unbeleavable "Sascha Geddart" who started with us 7 Month ago for a practices ... Hi Sascha ), love 3D to much, to do marketing and nothing else. It starts to get better right now. first companys come back after some time with new jobs, and projects slowly get bigger and more interisting (Airbus). But right now we still woudnt be able to pay a marketing guy. Hopefully this changes some time.

At last no one of us and you all at the moment could do this job, if he didnt love this amazing stuff here, (especial this fantastic software ... he he)

One has to find the balance of work he loves, family friends and bad payed jobs

Tom

[tom schuelke]

Hi Flipside

You are right. I think the examples here mean only an idea of what something would cost.

usualy when we make our offers to our custommers we try to make them as transparent as possible, explaining as far as it is nessessair, why and how we achieve our results, and of course this leeds clearly rather to a "per project" rate.

The problem usualy is , to make the customerst understand the difference between some immages and realy good stuff, and why this could be an advantage. Sure some times low quality is the best compromise and you also have to understand your customers in this point.

our Renderings arent payed because we love them, but because they have to acheve a result for our customers. And sometimes theese results can´t be messured.

How much should this smal part of a good presentation for company be paied. How much should it be payed if they still have other way´s to sell their products.

At last the first immage of an Airplaine should cost much much more money than the secound, third ...

so a per project cost is the usual way, but explained transparent to get a good informed engaged, and client.

Tom

[Da_elf]

i definately love flipsides example. i would have to modify the prices to meet with what i normally charge. however usually i do exteriors and just charge a flat rate for a full project.

[metroberlin]

yes yes, sounds all good. and i can´t complain at the moment concerning jobs. the only thing which is like a curse at the moment, is that people don´t pay after the work is done. this is a disease in germany at the moment. i know what you say now...take a lawyer, but even then people don´t pay. it´s like a curse....

[cocolas]

I can see what flipside is saying.....but I don't think it's that simple, because it depends a lot on the project type/size and client...and how long one estimates to be on that project.

I think that flipside's setup would work well for a small project like a family house or something that you get done in a week or what ever and move on.

A project I'm working on right now it's a large 10 story hospital addition to an already existing campus...I've been working on it off and on (more off) for the last year.....it keeps coming back with all sort of requests.
there are dozens of spaces inside and the exterior is fairly complicated...so there is no way we can charge by the project for the beginning when nobody has any idea what the clients wants or how the design will develop.....so when we charge by the image, I mean by the space....so if they want me do to the board room, that's a price for a rendering, then two weeks later they come back with a request for four different spaces...that's four different renderings (again tottaly different areas..not just turn the camera around....new modeling/texturing/lighting.etc).
that's why we charge by the image...there is simply no way to know how many renderings a client would want (unless the project is pretty small - which hardly ever happens where I work)...and how many renderings they want.
a couple months ago that same client wanted a 360 animation of the exterior...charged him for that....now they want nine more interiors (of completly different spaces) of the same bulitings...we'll charge them for each image separetly.

we would shot ourselfs in the foot if we would've given them a general price for the 3d work on the project a year ago...when the design wasn't even half way done......plus there is all the design changes that the 3d renderings have to go through as well....so it is far more complicated then a general price estimate.

paul.

[flipside]

Yeah true you need to know what you're dealing with. When you give a price estimate for a project it should be very clear for both parties what one expects from the other. But this is difficult, you need a contract that mentions everything and that makes sure you don't need to do more than you want. So in this case it would be easier to charge per image (but still 2 images of the same space will be cheaper than 2 images of seperate spaces).

Very recently I got an email of a small architecture firm who was looking for a partner for 3D viz. They asked for some general prices for general projects they described. What do you do with this? Do you give them prices or do you try to arrange a meeting and then talk about prices? I gave them prices, very very low ones as I read now, and I think now they won't come back as they might find it weird that mine were so low. I charged per project +- the same amount as most of you charge per image.

[cocolas]

if you have a choice, I think meeting in person and talking prices and projects is DEFINATLY the best way.
by talking to them is so much easier to clarify things and maybe talk about other future projects you can do for them, plus it's a great opportunity to bring in your work on a laptop or printed and show them what you're capable off....by the end of the conversion you might come out of there with a good relationship and a porject on your hands as well as a better understanding of price setup.

and yeah, offcourse there is always the danger of charging too low.....that can make you look cheap and/or desperate for work (as in do anything for work - and even if you are you don't wanna show them that).....

hope you get that work though, flipside...

paul.

[vince_1972]

Hi,

I find it pretty weird that all you guys get paid per image instead of per project. If I were you're client, and I would ask you to make 10 renders of 3 different rooms inside the same house, and you told me it's 1500€ per image I would really laugh! The additional effort for 2nd or 3th image of the same room is almost zero, so how to explain that equal cost?

I would think of the following ratio:
1 render of room1 in 1 house: for example 1500€
2nd render of the same room in the same house: 300€ 'everything is present, the only thing to do is turn the camera...)
etc..
1 render of room2 in the same house: 1000€ (house is already modeled)
2nd render of room2 in same house: 300€
etc...
1 render of a room in a second house: 1500€
etc...
And then if they want lots of images/houses give gradually discounts.

Of course you could add up the whole project cost, divide it by the number of images and tell the client it's XXX€ per image, but I think clients are more happy with the other approach, no?

In the last few months I did some visualisations for product designers. 1 was a design one made for a competition, where he needed to make a presentation of the design. I modeled the whole thing (many different objects), rendered every object and rendered several photo montages. I got one price for the project, and double if the project would win. If I would have charged for every single image (+-25 images, of which 12 photomontages), I needed to get 25*1000€=25000€. I did the project in one week! No product designer can spend 25000€ on a project like that! The amount I got was way way less, and I was lucky the project won! What I'm trying to say is that if people could pay me the rates you charge, I would be a millionnaire soon. 25000€ in one week, would be great! Maybe I work really fast, but in one full 40-50h week you could easily do a full viz of a house with several rooms, interior and exterior views, no? Some time ago I modeled our house, needed to measure everything by hand, making materials, modeling furniture, lighting, etc... I did it in 1 week, while I was still learning Vray and max, on a P3-800Mhz.

Of course I understand that many times you need to handle constantly changing wishes of the client.

Can some of you try to estimate work time on typical projects? Don't know how, maybe a typical family house visualization where you get 2d plans from the customer?

Regards,

flipside

I work with the same reasoning that you to do my prices

Good night

Vince

[matija]

flipside

(I find it pretty weird that all you guys get paid per image instead of per project. If I were you're client, and I would ask you to make 10 renders of 3 different rooms inside the same house, and you told me it's 1500€ per image I would really laugh! The additional effort for 2nd or 3th image of the same room is almost zero, so how to explain that equal cost? )



I agree with you flipside this is jas not throu you can make contract per job no per picture??????
3D job is everyday day cheaper & people from some country working for no money at all no spending a dime for softwares or anyting
I starting to include my 3D work with Design proces like part of design proces, and Architects don't needed so photorealistic 3D picture to finish jobs.architects will go always with cheaper solution. developer,and real estate gays usuly do not pay on the time on the end you see you'r self beging for you'r money.
big studios can make money becouse thay have biger clients
in next 5 jears you will be hapy to make any maney wit architectural visualization every architectural firm will have 3D gay for $ 20 per hr.

good luck to everyone bat sam story here is just for laugf????