Gotta Vent

[beestee]

Science has yet to prove the Bible wrong. In fact, when that is the primary goal of a scientific endeavor, the opposite ends up occuring.

Keep in mind that every human on this planet is imperfect, therefore their understanding is imperfect, therfore they can find fault in their understanding of the Bible. This would put the error in the humans perception of the Bible, not in the Bible itself.

For example, I don't understand a thing about quantum physics. If I were asked to come to a life/death conclusion on a matter that involves quantum physics I feel it would be foolish of me to come to that conclusion before I thouroughly research and understand quantum physics myself. Is it quantum physics' fault that I don't understand it? No, it is my own ignorance that is at fault.

[instinct]

Well...on the other Hand the Bible has to proof that Science is wrong too...The Bible ppl taking their kids of the school to teach them the "truth" make me sick...And one of the advantage of Science is admitting that we dont know everything...And that's something that most Hardcore christians fail. I tend to think that sometimes it just isnt enough to have it written in the bible....given the fact that the bible used here mostly is not even translated from the original writings, but the greek translation....and we all know where double translation COULD have lead. And taking the bible in a literal sense is pretty ignorant in my eyes. It all has to be put into perspective....theology is a kind of science of its own, and amateurs that lead whole communities always give me a creepy feeling

[charleyc]

Again, most of the posts have been religion from a biblical perspective. It's ignorant to think that other cultures do not have beneficial ways of thinking. For examples, Buddhist philosophy also views treating all living creations with respect. When people subscribe so wholeheartedly to a dogma, there is inherit danger in this level of extremism.

Christianity is simply the one most people here are most familiar with. Talk about anything you like, I don't care. As I said, I believe what I believe and you can believe what you want. I wholeheartedly believe in the bible, it doesn't bother me if you think it is inherently dangerous. God is very real and active to me in my life, what else should I want?

There's some schools of thought which believes Jesus's 14 years in the wilderness as a time when he came into contact with Buddhist philosophy. The middle east, in particular Jerusalem was a crossroads of various cultures along the silk route during that century. Whether or not you agree, there are alot of similarities.

The only problem I have with things like this is; Why Jesus? If you are going to believe in Jesus, believe in the book it is said He wrote. If you don't believe what He was supposed to have written, why bother using Him in a belief at all? Perhaps it is in an effort to unify various religions through the belief in one and the same God. However, every other religious text I have ever read has some major points that are contrary to the bible. Therefore I have to conclude that they are not worshipping the same God that the bible teaches. Call this dangerous, close minded, whatever. As I said, it is what I believe. If you (meaning anyone, not you specifically) want, believe something else.

Actually, the modern new testament has been rewritten constantly and retranslated over the past two millenia. Since then, scientists have recently rediscovered the lost gnostic gospel of Judas within the last couple of years (which was censored and banned by the Roman Catholic church during the first millenia.) I recall there is over a 50 acknowledged gospels which have been banned by the Catholic church which has been lost to history over the past two thousand years. Recent? According to the archaeological record, the old testament (and locations) date back to 3000+ BC with radiocarbon dating. That history was also often recorded with rote memory and loosely interpreted from person to person prior to mass education and papyrus.

Actually, gnosticism is not a recent discovery. It first came about within the life of Paul. It is widely believed that he is addressing this in the book of Colossians. The bible claims to be the inspired work of God. Only some of what even the apostles wrote was included in the bible. The books assembled in the bible were done so by people who completely believed without any doubt that it was the inspiration of God himself (the Holy Spirit) that determined which books to include. But again, if you don't believe in any of this, why care about that. Back to the point though, the bible is very clear about adding or taking away from it. The bible as it is translated in say the King James Version has a very well known lineage. The Old Testament was pretty much set prior to the New Testament, so I will speak mainly of the New. It was originally written in Greek. That was eventually translated to Latin, a language very close to Greek. That was then translated back into Greek where it was translated into English and we have the King James Version. All the major translations of the bible today can be traced back similarly, some went though a lot more translations, but if you read them side by side, the differences are negligible, even to the point where the message is pretty clear and the same in all. Some of the earliest known writings of the New Testament date back to any a few hundred years after Christ, and they are the same as what we have today. To briefly hit the Old Testament, the fairly recently discovered Dead See Scrolls contain many of the books of the bible and they are nearly word for word the same. There are an abundance of online resources that will talk about the exact differences.
But I can't help pointing out, that if someone doesn't believe in the bible, then what difference does any of this make to them?

I ask - what is important - Jesus Christ the rock star or Jesus Christ and his message? You worship 'him', but fail to see the message. 'He', the physcial being is completely unimportant and oftenly misinterpreted. The 'miracles' and 'embodiment' are superstition and speculation taught to a mass audience of illiterate people and farmers (most people couldn't read) - this was the masses 'television' back in the day and stories became widely exaggerated in order to gain the church finances (lest we forget how powerful/influential the church had become.) If Jesus was god, then we all contain parts of god as we are god's creation (very similar to gnostic views.) A lot of people cannot unfortunately see past Jesus's messages which do contain moral values of coexisting with one another. This brings up being spiritual versus religion.

First off, this is your opinion and it certainly doesn't hold up to what is stated in the bible, of which some parts were widely accepted to have been written within 40 years of Jesus death), nor in other historical documents, which among other things corroborate the time frame the bible was written). According to the bible, Jesus is important as his father was God, not man. The bible says, in the beginning was the Word, and the Word as with God and the Word was God...and the Word became flesh. The 'Word' here is the Greek Logos, designated as divine reason or plan. John uses this to describe Jesus Christ. We are not like him in that respect. We do not carry with us part of God in physical form. We were created in his image, but do not share any part of him as in we are not gods. Angles, animals and the earth were also created by God, but are not God. Jesus was the fulfillment of the Law. He was God incarnate, was a sinless man who was born to be the sacrifice for all of mankind's sins. This is absolutely critical to believe for salvation according to the bible. Also, while there may have been a lot of uneducated people, and perhaps a lot of them were illiterate, Jesus spent a lot of time talking to the Jewish priests who were the complete opposite of that. Not only where they extremely literate, they were very well educated. And not every one of them disagreed with Jesus. It is also obvious that some of the people could read and write, as they wrote the books of the bible. The early church was anything but lucrative. Persecution followed them nearly constantly. Many of the early church were slain for their beliefs. It would hardly seem that this was a device anyone would cling to for non-existent financial gain. If you recall, I mentioned that not too long, a few hundred years, the government of Rome forcibly brought in corruption to the Church. Not every single person fell to this, but enough that what most people call Christianity today is not exactly what it is written of in the bible. There are religions today called Christian that do not wholly follow the bible. The bible claims we need no man to intermediate between us and God (hence no priests), Jesus is our intermediary. We are not to bow before any other man, angel or god, worship statues, or pray to anyone other than God himself. It also states that we are not to add to it or take away from it. If a person uses these religions to formulate an opinion about the bible and its teachings, I would have to say they could easily come to the wrong conclusions. Kind of going back to what I had said earlier, why use the bible if you are not going to believe in it.

[Adam H. Stewart]

Why is Evolution only up for debate in the States

I might be compeletly wrong on this but growing up in Ireland ( deeply Religious society) I never once remember Evolution being anything other then an accepted fact, it was not a point of debate - through any of my religion classes college or pub conversations. In Ireland Evolution and Jesus Christ seem to be able to co-exist. Why do American Christians seem to have such big problems with it?

Maybe it is just on of those uniquely American Religious Anomalies like Pat Robertson or Rapture.

[charleyc]

Well...on the other Hand the Bible has to proof that Science is wrong too...

Why? It is not science that is debated, it is some theories derrived supposedly fromthe scientific method. As was said, we cannot prove anything about the origins of life extect that it exists. What we can do is shed light on those theories. Evolution has many flaws from a scietific standpoint. It is statistically so improbably, it is basically impossible. It fails to answere where the materials (soup and electricity) needed for life to begin came from. It lacks any sort of evidence. It is based on a timeline that other areas of science conflict with.
Now take origin by creation. Unless the creator were to come before us and create, there is no possible way to prove it.
If someone comes up with a scientifcally sound explination as to how life began, I might jsut give it credence. But until then I say it takes just as much faith to believe evolution as it does to believe God did it.

[jujubee]

God is very real and active to me in my life

So you think. Prove it to me. You cannot.

Actually, gnosticism is not a recent discovery

I never said it was. I said Judas gnostic gospel has been recently discovered.

Dead See Scrolls contain many of the books of the bible and they are nearly word for word the same.

The problem with religious organizations is that they often rely on the Bible word for word - and some take away different meanings sometimes with drastic consequences.

if someone doesn't believe in the bible, then what difference does any of this make to them?

When people like the US president (or anyone else) 'calls' on god and launches war with their beliefs - I do have a rightful concern as does the rest of humanity. These people all think they have the answer and are self-righteous. So yes, we all should care.

He was God incarnate, was a sinless man who was born to be the sacrifice for all of mankind's sins. This is absolutely critical to believe for salvation according to the bible.

Does 'forgive me father for I have sinned' ring a bell?

Jesus is our intermediary

I'm your immediary now at the second coming. Thou shalt not question me and to doubt is to sin.

[charleyc]

Re: Why is Evolution only up for debate in the States

I might be compeletly wrong on this but growing up in Ireland ( deeply Religious society) I never once remember Evolution being anything other then an accepted fact, it was not a point of debate - through any of my religion classes college or pub conversations. In Ireland Evolution and Jesus Christ seem to be able to co-exist. Why do American Christians seem to have such big problems with it?

Maybe it is just on of those uniquely American Religious Anomalies like Pat Robertson or Rapture.

There are a number of reasons. If you are interested, look at this
http://www.creationscience.com/onlinebook/FAQ42.html
or this
http://www.answersingenesis.org/crea.../evolution.asp

[instinct]

Why? It is not science that is debated,

Sure it is, Creationists are telling me that science is WRONG (not only knowing parts, but beeing completely WRONG) yet they dont have ANY proof besides their belief...

Evolution has many flaws from a scietific standpoint. It is statistically so improbably, it is basically impossible. It fails to answere where the materials (soup and electricity) needed for life to begin came from. It lacks any sort of evidence. It is based on a timeline that other areas of science conflict with.
Now take origin by creation. Unless the creator were to come before us and create, there is no possible way to prove it.

That's exactly my point...creationists try to tel me that what they BELIEVE is right, yet cannot proof it...still they tell me science is WRONG because it's debated and not 100% proven....If it has to work one way it has to work the other way.

And still the biggest problem in my eyes is the arrogance and ignorance that come bundled....i dont claim to know the truth, nor do scienctists claim to know everything, yet AMATEURS that dont even have a clue of hebrew, let alone Aramaic tell me that they know better cause they read a doubtable translation of scripts that were assembled and chosen by religious organisation (mind you not all authentic scripts are in the bible)

Thorsten[/quote]

[charleyc]

Perhpaps they are telling you that evolution science is wrong. Science is no more that a procedure to deterime things. In and of itself it is not necasarily wrong. But evolution strays very far from the scientific method. As well it never claimed to be proof, neither does creation. If you are really interested in this I would suggest looking into this site www.creationscience.com

He was God incarnate, was a sinless man who was born to be the sacrifice for all of mankind's sins. This is absolutely critical to believe for salvation according to the bible.

Does 'forgive me father for I have sinned' ring a bell?

That is my point. That phrase is not in the bible. We all have heard it before and it usually has to do with one man telling it to another in a secret little booth. That is all fine and dandy, but no where in the bible does it say we need to do this for any reason other than if we are struggling in something we feel we need their help in overcomming. If we want our sins forgiven, we are supposed to ask Jesus.

Hebrews 4:14-16
14 Seeing then that we have a great High Priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession. 15 For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin. 16 Let us therefore come boldly to the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy and find grace to help in time of need.

Jesus is our intermediary

I'm your immediary now at the second coming. Thou shalt not question me and to doubt is to sin.

Again, I am pretty sure this is not in the bible. I was referring to this;
1Timothy 2:5
5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus,

[instinct]

As well it never claimed to be proof, neither does creation. If you are really interested in this I would suggest looking into this site www.creationscience.com

To be honest i find alone the domainname loughable....

science refers to a system of acquiring knowledge based on empiricism, experimentation, and methodological naturalism,

SCIENCE is pretty wrong when talkin about creation in a biblical sense....prooving creation theories in an empirical or experimental way is gonna be pretty tough.....if it was creationTHEORY...or creationBELIEF...or even creationTRUTH i´d say to each his own....but creationscience doesnt make any sense to me to be honest

Thorsten

[jujubee]

Ok fine. It's not in the bible. Then how about:

"Father, why have you forsaken me?"

If Jesus was all-knowing and God - why would he ask himself this question??? Hmmm?

Answer is he never thought he was God. He was a wise, ordinary person.

[charleyc]

Well, that is up to you. But now you are sounding just as ignorant as the creationist you speak of. Science does not always have to prove things. In fact there are many more scientific theories out there than scientific fact. As things are today, there is not scientific way to prove the origins of life or this universe. We can however look at all the facts (not the theories) and let those guide us in determining which theories we want to beleive and which ones we don't.

[charleyc]

Ok fine. It's not in the bible. Then how about:

"Father, why have you forsaken me?"

If Jesus was all-knowing and God - why would he ask himself this question??? Hmmm?

Answer is he never thought he was God. He was a wise, ordinary person.

Jesus said several times that he was God. It is widely accepted that when Jesus prayed out loud, it was for the benefit of those who could hear him. Either for example or for education. The reason Jesus prayed this is probably that it was the very point where Jesus took all of mans sin upon himself. The bible states that sin separates us from God and that God will not look upon sin. This would have been the only time when Jesus was separated from his Father in spirit. This also reiterates to us why we need a mediary between us and God.

[beestee]

Prove it to me. You cannot.

Romans 1:18-20 - "what may be known about God is manifest among them, for God made it manifest to them. For his invisible qualities are clearly seen from the world's creation onward, because they are perceived by the things made, even his eternal power and Godship, so that they are inexcuseable."

The fact of the existance of God is proved by the order, power, and complexity of creation, macroscopic and microscopic, and through his dealings with his people throughout history.

It is not up to any of us to prove the existance of God to you. God has already done everything necessary to prove his existance to you. It is your decision to accept it, or to disregard it and brush it off if science just hasn't proven it yet.

Does it require faith? Of course. What good would your free-will be if there was nothing to decide? If everything were explained? If there were only one side to every issue?

Why do we have to make that decision and what would motivate us to search out the correct decision? Eve was thoroughly deceived by the wicked one, but Adam was not. With full knowledge Adam willfully and deliberately chose to disobey and then as a criminal he tried to hide. When brought to trial, instead of showing sorrow or regret or asking for forgiveness, Adam attempted to justify himself and pass the responsibility off on others, even blaming God for his own willful sin. "The woman whom you gave to be with me, she gave me fruit from the tree and so i ate."(Genesis 3:7-12)

Today we have the free will to make our own decisions. God wants us serve him of our own free will, not because we are forced to, but because it benefits us as individuals, and society as a whole. The state of religion in the world today makes it difficult, considering all the things that you mentioned.

Also, it is difficult to ponder on the idea that if there are all of these conflicting teachings in religion today, how could they all be right? The simple answer is that they cannot all be right. Twisted teachings have infiltrated the church and made it that much more difficult to find the truth. False religion will soon fall, and it will become evident where God's favor lies. My intention of posting in this thread is not to convert, but I figure you all deserve as much warning as the rest of the world, and if you really want to know the truth, you will ask God for it and he will give it to you.

I intend for this to be my last post in this thread as I do not wish to get into an arguement over beliefs. If you want the truth bad enough, you will find it, or rather, it will find you. Just be sure not to turn it away when it comes "knocking on your door."

[jujubee]

You guys are too funny. Anytime religious people can't win an argument they quote scripture.

This would have been the only time when Jesus was separated from his Father in spirit.

Always an excuse whenever it's convenient... The fact is this contradicts everything you have said.