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Originally posted by pailhead
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I don't understand. Are you suggesting that we do something? I haven't really seen your suggestions. I would normally suggest writing your congressman if it really upsets you. I doubt it will have much effect. -
guys look at the range of rates in the U.S. Hourly rates for 3D visuals can range anywhere from $40/hour to over $120/hour. there are alot of reasons why the $40/hour guy isn't stealing business from the $120/hour guy. mainly i think it has to do with reputation. also i think there are certian sectors of CG that are just plain immune to factors like outsourcing. if you can consistently satisfy your clients, and make it clear to them that you will go above and beyond the competition in order to get the job done, then you should have nothing to worry about.
this thread seems to paint a gloomy outlook for the industry. i for one see nothing but opportunity. you can make a nice living in this business. it really bugs me to hear of artists who are more talented than myself struggling financially. perhaps its time to move to a different market? i know thats easier said than done
lele brought up an interesting point about how he has stay on the cutting edge in order to be compettive. in the back of my mind i always tended to think that there was more talent overseas than in the U.S. nothing against us americans, its just a general observation of mine. it may be because alot of the arch viz artists i know personally tend to only know enough to get by. yet they all make a nice living.
if i were in the arch viz business i wouldn't worry about the $10/hour indian. i'd worry about the $40/hour italian who just setup shop in anytown USA.
just my $.02
-joeComment
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this is a gloomy outlook, even dreadful. thankfully green cards are not that easy to getOriginally posted by posterus
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Can't beat the italian mate.
40$ an hour, mozzarella cheese pizza included.
Oh, and if asked, they make offers "you can't refuse"
LeleComment
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I'd just like to hear everyone say "using pirated software in order to undercut the market IS WRONG!" instead of justifying it with a sob story and saying that we can always lift boxes in IKEA.I don't understand. Are you suggesting that we do something? I haven't really seen your suggestions. I would normally suggest writing your congressman if it really upsets you. I doubt it will have much effect.
Thats really, the only thing that I'd like to see.Dusan Bosnjak
http://www.dusanbosnjak.com/Comment
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I haven't seen anyone here say it ISN'T wrong. They might be giving what they think are reasons why people do it, and that those people aren't necessarily bad people, but its wrong no doubt about it. I learned 3dsmax from a cracked copy. I always knew that one day I would get a job using it where the studio DID purchase each and every license. No access to cracked copy? Autodesk would be out a license, plain and simple. I would have gone another route professionally.Originally posted by pailheadComment
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I took a max class at a community college and the teachers were telling us where we could get cracks.Originally posted by percydamanComment
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When I was at college in Savannah we had programmers from Alias|Wavefront come speak. When asked how they felt about the easy availability of cracked copies of Maya on campus, they replied "well, our lawyers will tell you different, but for as long as you're in school we rather you learn our product through any means necessary."
No one here is going to argue that profiting off the use of pirated software is anything but immoral and illegal. But it's a fact of life that has to be expected, and we're just explaining how we cope with the reality, not justifying it.
ShaunShaunDonComment
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I've even heard that autodesk releases cracks out there themselves, but that's not really the point. One thing is to learn on a cracked copy, another is to earn money of one, but a whole other thing is to undercut the market by doing it.
I was under the impression that people where trying to justify it. I mean, everyone keeps using arguments like "well, that's free economy for ya!" "those are the results of globalisation!", "you have to adapt to the market!", and i find the comment about lifting boxes instead of doing 3d somewhat insulting.I haven't seen anyone here say it ISN'T wrong. They might be giving what they think are reasons why people do it, and that those people aren't necessarily bad people, but its wrong no doubt about it. I learned 3dsmax from a cracked copy. I always knew that one day I would get a job using it where the studio DID purchase each and every license. No access to cracked copy? Autodesk would be out a license, plain and simple. I would have gone another route professionally.
I'd rather hear someone condemn this practice, someone say that we should stick together, form some sort of a syndicate, educate the clients, participate in "will render for food" action in order to undercut the oversea market... even a simple "it's wrong" at first ball would be enough, instead of quoting the price of tea in China.
I'd rather have people with pirated software flood the market with comperable prices and have much higher profit margins, instead of undercutting and making it hard for honest people. So please don't tell me that these people aren't bad at allDusan Bosnjak
http://www.dusanbosnjak.com/Comment
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But would you be ok with a company in China charging $5 per hour if they were using legit software? The fact is even if they pay $5000 for a seat of max they can put it on a credit card and continue charging what they want. When I figure my prices I have a lot of bills to pay and a seat of vray and a seat of max were paid for a long time ago but my overhead hasn't changed. Infact I imagine that there are many companies in other parts of the world that are completly legit using legit software. But they can afford to make $50 per day because their overhead is lower.Originally posted by pailhead
If you are upset because you loose a job to a competitor that can charge a small fraction of what you can charge that is understandable. I have gone in for interviews where I felt set up. The client rejects me when they hear my average price and tell me they have a company in India that charged them $100. I get pissed. Its a crappy feeling. But I really don't imagine that anything would change depending on whether or not the overseas company uses warez software or not. I don't. Maybe the company would charge $150 for a job instead of $100. I traveled in India when I was in Goa I paid $1 per night for my hotel on the beach. The reality is that the overhead and operating costs are so different that we cannot compete.
Whenever I hear people complaining about overseas markets it really seems clear there is a misunderstanding. There seems to be an assumption that something amoral is going on. I have heard people complain that the overseas markets must use Sweat Shops to get this labor. No. I think you are doing yourself an injustice (as well as other people in the world) if you assume that there are unfair business practices going on. The underlaying reality is that using the same business model you use to run your business other people can charge a lot less. I cannot say that ever company uses legit software I think many places don't but I don't think this is the issue.
I think it sucks and sometimes it really really sucks but I don't think its wrong.Comment
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looks like this is gonna be another one of those long and ongoing topics....
PAILHEAD...i originally did not want to start with this but your last post is full of thoughts that go against each other
youre upset that someone overseas is able to produce a render at a price next to nothing....
me personally, i am upset at what price americans can buy petrol for their unnecessary powerfull cars...resources r running low everywhere but people in us can still buy petrol at a fraction price compared to europe...
face this fact....some things in life are just not fair, but u have to live with it and find a way how to overcome them!!! once u start complaining too much about one thing u will complain forever about everything!
"forming a syndicate" ...get real for gods sake
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making some sort of forum or closed web community for paying users for exchange of ideas, mats, tuts, models...that is a solution....u can start one....i ll be hapy to share some stuff with u
...using this forum and being able to post is one massive advantage that warez users dont have!!! of course they can post on evermotion but they will hardly get a reply from vlado)))))
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Imagine how insulting *I* found it.Originally posted by pailhead
I referred to myself: i have been a fraction of the blink of an eye last winter from applying for real.
"Dash the stupid market of archviz, i need REAL money for REAL bills."
3D isn't only archviz, and archviz isn't all i ever did in 3d, as you may or may not have gathered.
Trust me, if i had enough nervous strenght, i'd have preferred the jobs i took part in kept winning awards, rather than be underpaid, understaffed, and shite to look at (not talking of studiodim, here, but of freelance contracts from around the world).
As things went, i took an offer to become a director in London as an insult, rather than a serious one, and came back home.
Wrong choiche? Last year, all the answers i could come up with were "HELL YEAH!"
Hence the IKEA reference.
But as i said before, i chose to hold on and get better at this, rather than letting go.
My worst enemy in all of it was myself, surely not the market laws, or pirate students.
LeleComment
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