Fstorm render

[kosso_olli]

it's not about what experienced people get out of Fstorm, but what inexperienced or not technically oriented people get out of it.

Take a look at the fStorm Facebook-Group. There are loads of images, both from experienced users and novices. The quality of the images ranges from crappy renders from beginners to top notch from high end guys. Just about the same with every engine, Vray no exception. I have yet to see the real benefit of all this, except for Glare as I explained.

[joconnell]

There is no such a thing as the Nikon or Canon look: people shoot the cleanest raw they possibly can, and choose cameras based on the inherent quality of their response, these days only differing between makers because of they way each goes about sensors, surely not because of a post tone operation :ie. maybe the primaries are slightly different in gamut shape, that's all. They ALL, unequivocally, aim at the closest possible RAW capture of light (AKA, in Rendering: LWF), and what stops them from achieving it is physics and technology (ie. it's a limit, not a choice.).

There's so a canon and nikon look

All of the sensors are just photon gathering sensors with a coloured fitler over the top for red, green and blue so they're inherently linear from the off. That of course doesn't look like film though as film use to have log curves in it's exposure. The dslr makers mimic this in the post processing of the raw files, they've got plenty of metadata in there first of all to take out any inconsistencies in each individual sensor from what should be correct and then second some colour science from the manufacturer to turn the flat linear data into what we'd consider a pleasant photo - not unlike what the tone curves and contrast of fstorm is doing to it's pixels. There's been wars started on forums about whether nikons or canons render nicer skin tones for example and likewise the red camera was almost unuseable in it's earlier generations as with every update of the camera firmware, the colour that came from the camera was completely different and required the DOP to relearn it and shoot brand new wedge tests to see how everything responded. Same linear photon collecting bayer sensors in the camera but a world of difference in what the developing software does to it when presenting a final image to the user!

You're totally right on the subjective nature of "I think this looks better" too - there's no accounting for taste and the final needs of the user - if they think the final image in the frame buffer is "pretty" (a subjective view) then hey, great for them, keep doing that - as for you as part of a software development team trying to ascertain what, if anything, is lacking then subjective opinions aren't exactly the easiest things to act upon

[AlexP]

I'd say a huge percent of people pass on images to another point to be worked on

Well I guess it depends on the industry, depends on the studio. I nor anyone I've worked with has ever handed over raw renders to someone to work on, but then I dont work in vfx but arch vis. TBH in my time, ive only ever worked with a couple of people that spend more than 10 mins doing post work, just isn't the time available. Projects only last 4-5 days, a week if you're lucky.
It has to look good straight out of Vray, so, working lens fx etc are super important to me and everyone else I work with. I only spend about 30secs in lightroom on each image.

[LudvikKoutny]

Take a look at the fStorm Facebook-Group. There are loads of images, both from experienced users and novices. The quality of the images ranges from crappy renders from beginners to top notch from high end guys. Just about the same with every engine, Vray no exception. I have yet to see the real benefit of all this, except for Glare as I explained.

Sure that it's not a "make pretty image" button, and it won't save complete newbies. I am just trying to answer your question what all the fuss is about

People simply view it as a means of getting to a certain quality level at the less expenses in terms of gaining knowledge about the software. Both me and you know V-Ray in depth and know where to go and what to turn on to make our renders look good and perform well. We know there are numerous BRDFs to choose from, we know what is the difference between tone mapped and linear image and what tone mapping does to the image. We also know that V-Ray's lensFX is not really good for final frame rendering, or that there is a very tiny button at the bottom left of VFB which will open you a panel with tons of tone mapping options.

BUT...

New users, even experienced ones, just migrating from different renderer/package, or even users who just don't like to get into technical things do not know it. They won't switch BRDF, they will just do renders with default VrayMTL settings and Fstorm side to side, and conclude there is something about Fstorm shading they like more. Same with tonemapping... We know we can open VFB panel, load some good looking lut, tone down highlight burn and boost contrast a little bit, but they don't. They will render default linear image in Vray, compare it side by side to Fstorm one, and conclude they like Fstorm one more. And same could be said by performance. Average guy just won't know that nVidia's 100* faster on GPU propaganda is BS. They may have 5 years old CPU but Titan GPU in their machine, then they run Fstorm next to V-Ray and conclude Fstorm is way faster, despite comparison conditions being completely off.

So yeah It's just that I can understand what the appeal is. I can't count how many times I've already watched some gumroad tutorials of artists I admire, and found out they seem to lack a lot of experience in technical area, yet they more than compensate for it by their persistent patience, and sometimes also blissful ignorance... They simply choose a tool that's easiest for them to use, regardless of how efficient it actually is...

[kosso_olli]

They may have 5 years old CPU but Titan GPU in their machine, then they run Fstorm next to V-Ray and conclude Fstorm is way faster, despite comparison conditions being completely off.

That's another thing I don't understand. Since 3.2 Vray has become extremely easy to set up. Since then I barely touched settings from Default, and results are quick and good. Also since then RT GPU made a huge leap forward. As can be seen from my comparison, it is way better in terms of quality for a given time frame, and that is with BF/BF, not using Light Cache. Sometimes I feel most users here just sleep and miss some very important updates. Things are getting better, constantly.

[joconnell]

Well I guess it depends on the industry, depends on the studio. I nor anyone I've worked with has ever handed over raw renders to someone to work on, but then I dont work in vfx but arch vis. TBH in my time, ive only ever worked with a couple of people that spend more than 10 mins doing post work, just isn't the time available. Projects only last 4-5 days, a week if you're lucky.
It has to look good straight out of Vray, so, working lens fx etc are super important to me and everyone else I work with. I only spend about 30secs in lightroom on each image.

Yep, and some people don't even wait for a nice render to come out

Luxigon pretty much take the very first thing that comes out of vray and go right into photoshop with it so there's a tonne of variety in people's needs!

[vlado]

Sometimes I feel most users here just sleep and miss some very important updates.

You'd be surprised at how many people just do their job, not following forums, news or anything until a colleague comes up and says "look at this cool new thing" Until it becomes an old thing and works well enough that they don't need to constantly look for updates... At which point someone comes along with the next new thing and so on

Best regards,
Vlado

[Neilg]

You'd be surprised at how many people just do their job, not following forums, news or anything until a colleague comes up and says "look at this cool new thing"

And i've worked with people who when this happens, say 'the old way works fine, i'm not using that'
The number of people who actually stay on top of this is a near microscopic sample of all people who work with 3d software

[mitviz]

i would love to see some examples of those linear images being used in post processing, i have personally never seen a retoucher work in person, as for the next new thing, its good to try, it can't hurt, vray for many reasons is the top renderer because you can use it on almost any machine with a good enough cpu, even a crappy one but when these new ones pop up they usually have some impact on the existing ones, people see how they work and want it now in their favorite renderer vray, its just logical, we are humans and before vray whatever there was when vray came people were probably saying the same thing about vray but given time its where it is today. so will we ever get the tonemapping options in vray as say a extra menue rollout? if these guys can spit it out in a few weeks or days sure the large chaosgroup team can manage this in a few hours

[Sbrusse]

You'd be surprised at how many people just do their job, not following forums, news or anything until a colleague comes up and says "look at this cool new thing" Until it becomes an old thing and works well enough that they don't need to constantly look for updates... At which point someone comes along with the next new thing and so on

Best regards,
Vlado

Hahaha, busted I can recognize myself so much in that for the last 8 years

[Sbrusse]

I think it's fair to asses that nearly the only thing to take out of FStorm is the way it applies those post effects.
We do have some tonemaping, vignette, LUTs but I think it's fair to say that the lens effect (bloom, glare, lens flare) are lacking a bit of love.

Although I like having the best output possible out of the VFB although I also understand the importance of post production.

I can do pretty much everything in post using AE, but one thing that I can't, really, is having a proper lens effect in AE, either for stills and for animations.
If anyone can show me how to get a proper lens effect that is as "good" (ok super objective, but still) bloom/glare/lens flare for animation out of AE, I'd be really keen.
And don't tell me I can do a batch script in PS using ArionFX!

All in all, I think Vray should lvl up the post effect and I think that would sum up and close all those threads I can read over the last couple of years where Octane/UE4/FStorm looks better than Vray.
It's all about post effect that for the user that really needs them are just not available.
PS : I would add a CA effect as well by the way, Grant Warwick simulated that by using a lens profile in the Vray Cam but at the expense of higher rendertimes and not "physically" correctness. It just shows one more time there are people who needs those effects.

[joconnell]

i would love to see some examples of those linear images being used in post processing

Pretty much any film you look at is set up in linear.

The main reason is if you're breaking apart lighting so it can be adjusted / colour corrected, you want this to happen evenly. If you've got light information where the highlights are softly clipped off and a similar rolloff into the shadows, when you start colour correcting the image the colour correction will affect the mid tones differently from the highs and lows and you'll get really weird results!

On the large team of chaosgroup, it's apparently not as big as you'd think! They've got 9 different softwares for vray to look after, split that into cpu and gpu teams plus phoenix and vrscans too! Last I heard the team was about 130 people, it might have grown since that but if you divide that by the amount of products they've to develop and support the resources aren't exactly autodesk

[joconnell]

I can do pretty much everything in post using AE, but one thing that I can't, really, is having a proper lens effect in AE, either for stills and for animations.
If anyone can show me how to get a proper lens effect that is as "good" (ok super objective, but still) bloom/glare/lens flare for animation out of AE, I'd be really keen.
And don't tell me I can do a batch script in PS using ArionFX!

Lenscare by frishluft was the best I saw in terms of natural effects - http://www.frischluft.com/lenscare/

[^Lele^]

and Flair for aberration.

[AlexP]

Lenscare by frishluft was the best I saw in terms of natural effects - http://www.frischluft.com/lenscare/

Isnt that just DOF though?

How about glare/bloom?