Getting that airy, light look for interiors

[piotrus3333]

and yes, you can use all the elements as long as you are not rebuilding the beauty additively.

[MANUEL_MOUSIOL]

This thread is turning out to be a sheer endless inspiration about workflows.
l will be back after experimenting more

[DanSHP]

you are missing the whole point of avoiding 32bit mode in photoshop. without lut active in vfb the log space conversion is not happening.

if you like the lut than sure, use it.

it’s not about bit depth but high dynamic range raw render (like your exr) and low dynamic raw render (like my 16bit PNG). ldr being more convenient in photoshop.

Sorry I may not have been clear. See attached start to finish (VFB->PS)

[DanSHP]

Result.....

[piotrus3333]

sort of ok.
but
you saved exr with gamma 1.
than you converted to ~2.2 during moving into 16bit PSD.
and remapped log color with curves, great - looks good.

just skip the back and forth gamma jump and 32 to 16bit PSD conversion. save from VFB to non-hdr format, 16bit png or tiff. render goes right into 16bit PSD via smart object/video layer and saved time can be used for something more productive than clicking buttons in photoshop.
any particular reason for exr here?

[DanSHP]

Thanks. Really appreciate your input here.

sort of ok.
you saved exr with gamma 1.

Can you elaborate on this? I understand the difference between 1.0 and 2.2, but saving it out on 'Automatic' is 2.2 right? I would have to override it to 1.0. But if its on automatic, its 2.2? I may have my wires crossed here.

any particular reason for exr here?

Since I went professional I have always used .exr. I picked it up from my old manager. All of our imagery is in linear and using HDR image formats gave us lots of range in post. Saving out to 16 bit exr or tiff never gave us range to reduce the linear highlights in PS, everything just went mucky!

I did wonder why saving out a 16bit exr, still opens in in PS as 32bit, whereas saving out a 16bit tiff and opening that in PS opens at 16bit straight off the bat (as you laid out). Why is this?

I'm open to suggestion on the best approach here.

[DanSHP]

Also, if I'm adding reflection passes into the mix etc what layer mode should be used? Overlay seems to work best?

[piotrus3333]

Thanks. Really appreciate your input here.



Can you elaborate on this? I understand the difference between 1.0 and 2.2, but saving it out on 'Automatic' is 2.2 right? I would have to override it to 1.0. But if its on automatic, its 2.2? I may have my wires crossed here.



Since I went professional I have always used .exr. I picked it up from my old manager. All of our imagery is in linear and using HDR image formats gave us lots of range in post. Saving out to 16 bit exr or tiff never gave us range to reduce the linear highlights in PS, everything just went mucky!

I did wonder why saving out a 16bit exr, still opens in in PS as 32bit, whereas saving out a 16bit tiff and opening that in PS opens at 16bit straight off the bat (as you laid out). Why is this?

I'm open to suggestion on the best approach here.

oh boy. I guess we’re running in circles here. and since you went pro I should start charging you I guess. manchester not london prices haha - after all I’m such a nice guy.

that is quite a diversion so sorry to the op.

automatic gamma during saving to hdr format like exr gives you 1 not 2.2.
1 = linear and 2.2 = ~srgb. hdr formats are always considered to be gamma 1. its pointless otherwise. exr in pshop looks ok because it gets view transform to srgb. for ps all hdr formats are 32bit psd, no way around it.

linear color simply put gives you ability to add and subtract render elements. add and substract operations in ps. in srgb this is never works correctly (hence your overlay mode, read on that)

now if you are totally ok with 32bit psds than nothing I suggested here is for you (just drop the overlay mode, use add/subtract for vrayreflections element)

16bit tiff never gave you the hdr data because the values got clipped at 1 float. log space takes all the hdr data (above 1 float) and squeezes it into 16 bit 0-1f range. this is still a lot so you can recover it with curves in 16bit psd.
you get the hdr-like range in 16bit psd. you loose benefits of linear color.

[DanSHP]

oh boy. I guess we’re running in circles here. and since you went pro I should start charging you I guess. manchester not london prices haha - after all I’m such a nice guy.

that is quite a diversion so sorry to the op.

automatic gamma during saving to hdr format like exr gives you 1 not 2.2.
1 = linear and 2.2 = ~srgb. hdr formats are always considered to be gamma 1. its pointless otherwise. exr in pshop looks ok because it gets view transform to srgb. for ps all hdr formats are 32bit psd, no way around it.

linear color simply put gives you ability to add and subtract render elements. add and substract operations in ps. in srgb this is never works correctly (hence your overlay mode, read on that)

now if you are totally ok with 32bit psds than nothing I suggested here is for you (just drop the overlay mode, use add/subtract for vrayreflections element)

16bit tiff never gave you the hdr data because the values got clipped at 1 float. log space takes all the hdr data (above 1 float) and squeezes it into 16 bit 0-1f range. this is still a lot so you can recover it with curves in 16bit psd.
you get the hdr-like range in 16bit psd. you loose benefits of linear color.

I am but a fish amongst whales here. Thank you.

If you're in ever in Manchester, I owe you a beer! Sorry to OP for the diversion.

[piotrus3333]

one more: use linked smart objects or video layers in photoshop so your new render is automatically updated in your psd file. life is too short for hard manual labor like that.

[PGD]

I have to say, this thread has been really useful - thanks everyone for you input!

I knocked up this scene and tried to apply the things we've learnt from this thread.

This is rendered with Reinhard set to 1.0, no LUT (I tried several LUT's out but was never really happy with the outcome, so switched it off)
Exposure enabled in VFB, with the Highlights turned right down
No Curves within vfb, but a slight curve was added in PS

Lighting is just a dome outside and a PG Skies HDRI added, no fill lights.

Test room scene 01 by Phil Grayston, on Flickr

I did render as 32bit exr file to meddle with. But once the corrections are done in vfb, I do wonder what the point of saving the exr file is. More information I guess, but adding curves to both the 16bit file and the Jpeg file wields pretty similar results tbh. The 300mb exr file versus the 4mb jpeg would soon add up too..

Opening the 32bit exr file in PS, converting to 16bit and selecting 'Equalize Histogram' does look nice though

Any thought on this?

[MANUEL_MOUSIOL]

Nice.
What exactly did you learn by our discussion that you used except for using highlight burn, though?
Seems like you already had that airy look right away

[PGD]

I hadn't used LUT's before, or Exposure within VFB, or EXR output..

I used to turn the highlight burn down to 0.3 and work with that. It's been a good exercise this

We then exported the model and tried to replicate the look with Lumion, and got surprisingly close tbh.

[Karol.Osinski]

Hey guys ! This one is one of my favourite topics so far ! Thanks MANUEL_MOUSIOL for starting it and all rest, especially piotrus3333 for great insights and tips.
I have a quick noob question about grading- I wanna make sure if by using Camera Raw in PS, the exact same results can be achieved as using LUT ?

[MANUEL_MOUSIOL]

Karol.Osinski unless you work very precisely and compare the image with an lut applied and your camera raw work, it will be hard, and it's a new process for every image. If you stay within only adjusting colours and contrast it would certainly be possible. But if you start using clarity and other effects, you won't get a match.
What exactly do you want to replicate by using an lut instead of camera raw?
With an lut you have less control but it's easy to use and if you have a certain one that you like it is probably a lot of work to match it in camera raw, depending on what kind of lut it is.