Standalone Denoiser - Documentation, or lack there of

[wolfgang_himmelfarb]

Hello and thank you in advance for any feedback. I'm working through setting up a pipeline for animation out of cinema 4d and vray and I want to make sure I'm following best practice wherever and however I can.

1. My understanding is that the Standalone Denoiser will give better results because it takes adjacent frames into account whereas denoise at render time does not. Is that even true, I remember reading this in the forum but without context?
2. When I run the Denoiser app I'm not getting a result, perhaps because I don't have the required passes(noiseLevel, defocusAmount, worldPositions, etc.)? I see the errors in the command manager and it looks like its doing some processing but the result is the same as before.
3. There is no exr compression option so my DWA compressed files double in size. I use a third party render and ZIP creates a bottle neck during file transfer that I'm trying to avoid so I render out DWA.
4. What's the thinking with denoising RE vs not. Is it better or worse, what's the the trade there if you do or don't.
5. Where did the "effectsResult" go?

I come to the forum because I can't find the information in the documentation.

Lastly, how does the below workflow work in Cinema. I see the "Only generate Render Elements" but no RE_Denoise. How and where to those elements show up. Apologies I'm a bit frustrated, i rendered local for some hours(+10h) in hopes of testing the denoiser and I'm wondering if I have to start over now because I don't have the required passes for the Stand alone. That's my bad.

[sirio76]

Yes standalone denoiser needs much more attention, the situation is even worst on macOS since we have to deal with everything using command line.

[boyan]

Hello,

Thank you for the post.

I assure you that the team always reads and checks your reports with attention.

My understanding is that the Standalone Denoiser will give better results because it takes adjacent frames into account whereas denoise at render time does not. Is that even true, I remember reading this in the forum but without context?

1/To use the Standalone denoiser tool, save the file as exr or vrimg.

When I run the Denoiser app I'm not getting a result, perhaps because I don't have the required passes(noiseLevel, defocusAmount, worldPositions, etc.)? I see the errors in the command manager and it looks like its doing some processing but the result is the same as before.

2/ Enable denoiser for all Render elements.

The render element will not be saved if you use only RGB selection.

There is no exr compression option so my DWA compressed files double in size. I use a third party render and ZIP creates a bottle neck during file transfer that I'm trying to avoid so I render out DWA.

3/ File output from the Standalone denoiser is an uncompressed EXR file. The DWAA and DWAB compression level is 45.

What's the thinking with denoising RE vs not. Is it better or worse, what's the the trade there if you do or don't.

4/As for the animation, denoiser for all render elements should be enabled. For example, Light Select Render Element. Personal opinion

Where did the "effectsResult" go? I come to the forum because I can't find the information in the documentation.

5/ When you select "RGB channel -> RGB Only, the effect result is missed;
I guess this might be the reason.

Lastly, how does the below workflow work in Cinema. I see the "Only generate Render Elements" but no RE_Denoise. How and where to those elements show up. Apologies I'm a bit frustrated, i rendered local for some hours(+10h) in hopes of testing the denoiser and I'm wondering if I have to start over now because I don't have the required passes for the Stand alone. That's my bad.

6/ Select this option from drop-down menu:





This is the page on how to add Render elements in Cinema: https://docs.chaos.com/display/VC4D/Render+Elements


By default, the denoiser is disabled.

[wolfgang_himmelfarb]

Looks like I'm being quoted but questions are not being addressed. I'm seeing the step by step that I've already read in the max and maya denoise pages - where I got my initial screen shot.

Anyhow the attached is what I send to the render farm. Can you please tell me what to add(render elements?) or change so I can use the stand alone denoiser. I don't do Only RGB - I am a professional and need to send to compositing so please take that into consideration. I also don't need the RGB because I bake in VFB settings so RBG is irrelevant in compositing - is "Output All" the only option or can I skip RGB bc I have effectsResult? Ultimately the goal is No Denoise at rendertime but only with standalone.

It sounds like I have to just deal with 32bit zip file bloat.

I may just throw out the idea, standalone denoiser is not an option and just render in denoise and if it cost us more per frame, that the cost of running vray.

[wolfgang_himmelfarb]

Yes standalone denoiser needs much more attention, the situation is even worst on macOS since we have to deal with everything using command line.

yeah that sounds tough. I'm guessing you do Zip or uncompressed, whatever the standalone defaults to? Downloading frames is bottleneck for my current setup but the ideal of going from lossy to lossless back to lossy makes me wince but so does the idea of my compositor being slow because I converted my lossy frome into lossless for no benefit.

[boyan]

Looks like I'm being quoted but questions are not being addressed.

Which one is not answered? I will do it.

Can you please tell me what to add(render elements?) or change so I can use the stand alone denoiser.

First, you should enable the denoiser. The information is written to a file so the Standalone denoiser can read it.

However, as I wrote, you will achieve a smaller size from DWAA and DWAB rather than using a Standalone denoiser.

Note: There is no way to save this extra denoising time, but if you save the image as vrimg file format you can later use two tools: 1/ VRimg to EXR ( you can split denoised RGB from the rest) and 2/Standalone denoiser,

I don't do Only RGB - I am a professional and need to send to compositing so please take that into consideration. I also don't need the RGB because I bake in VFB settings so RBG is irrelevant in compositing - is "Output All" the only option or can I skip RGB bc I have effectsResult?

You can achieve this by using the denoisers option "Only Generate Render elements", but in that case, denoised RGB will not exist in the file.

Otherwise, the RGB channels are always exported when you save an EXR file as a multi-channel file.

Let me know if you need more,

Cheers,

I should mark this information for the docs team, and we should include this in the documentation. The information does exist, but I understand that when you rush to finish the projection, you don't have time to search or read the information.
Perhaps we can even do better by creating a render preset.

[wolfgang_himmelfarb]

Thank you greatly Boyan,

Apologies, maybe I'm incompetent but I now don't understand what the point of the stand alone denoiser is then. If it's not about saving overall processing time, on the node, during multi frame animation rendering is it only for "better results." I initially asked and am looking for clarity on:

Originally posted by wolfgang_himmelfarb View Post
My understanding is that the Standalone Denoiser will give better results because it takes adjacent frames into account whereas denoise at render time does not. Is that even true, I remember reading this in the forum but without context?

1/To use the Standalone denoiser tool, save the file as exr or vrimg.

A few very simple questions:

1. What benefit is the standalone denoiser vs. at render time? Are there any side by side or should I do that myself?
2. As I am only speaking about ANIMATION, is there a greater benefit here or not vs stills?
3. If I use the denoise at rendertimes I use the denoise in the layer tree in the VFB and for the Standalone ALWAYS have the Denoiser enabled in the rendersettings and set to "Default V-Ray Denoiser" "Only Generate Render Elements" also making sure it is unselected in the VFB if I am applying VFB adjustments to the output... I did review Standalone denoise page and it looks like sketchup has a switch on for vray denoiser. I should have assumed.
4. Can you point me to the existing information if it isnt this https://support.chaos.com/hc/en-us/a...-Denoiser-Tool?
5. If I want to Denoise at rendertime I use the checkbox in the VFB, if I want to use the standalone I have to have to ENABLE in render settings but never both? If I do neither I will have to use some third party denoiser or in my compositor.

Apologies in advance for my ignorance to this system. I am working on an ANIMATION pipeline and it seems that using a third party render farm and maybe that is creating issues. vrimage files unfortunately isn't an option. My renderfarm is in Europe and I am in the US and +1gig per frame will bottleneck the production. Sorry I'm sure this is an edge case and I am doing things wrong and worst case I will prepare to denoise at render time.

Lastly, I dont think presets are necessarily, in fact I think that might cause more confusions. They often obscure how things work "under the hood." I remember back in the day vray presets would require some trial and error then ignore what was going on underneath. If anything we need more documentation and an admission wherever possible what the limitations are bc the alternative is me asking where things are, why things are missing, things like this. Currently the Chaos documentation is very clean and "streamlined: which looks nice but I'm often posting on reddit or looking on forums for the complete picture. Or honestly I read the Max docs and try to parse the equivalent.

[wolfgang_himmelfarb]

Yes standalone denoiser needs much more attention, the situation is even worst on macOS since we have to deal with everything using command line.

Hi Sirio, I understand you use the Standalone, but for multiframe? Also I'm assuming you render local and exr uncompressed or vrimage? I'm curious what benefit you see, why you go through the extra step and if it's always worth it or only sometimes?

Thank you in advance and always for your feedback.

[boyan]

Hello, Wolfgang,

Originally posted by wolfgang_himmelfarb View Post
My understanding is that the Standalone Denoiser will give better results because it takes adjacent frames into account whereas denoise at render time does not. Is that even true, I remember reading this in the forum but without context?

1/To use the Standalone denoiser tool, save the file as exr or vrimg.

I'm sorry. I should try to be more precise next time. Check the attachment with the script. This is the terminal or command line; follow the instructions. Maybe this will save you time. I tested it partially, but works.

1. If I want to Denoise at rendertime I use the checkbox in the VFB, if I want to use the standalone I have to have to ENABLE in render settings but never both? If I do neither I will have to use some third party denoiser or in my compositor.

You have to enable it in render settings.

You can decrease the render settings to compensate for the "extra" denoiser time.

Cheers,

P.S. Please check the attached file !denoiser_tool.7z, which has a script and bat file. Follow the instruction in the Readme file; I think this will speed up your a little workflow

[wolfgang_himmelfarb]

P.S. Please check the attached file !denoiser_tool.7z, which has a script and bat file. Follow the instruction in the Readme file; I think this will speed up your a little workflow

Thank you greatly Boyan! I really appriciate the help and will circle back if I have any further issue but I think I understand everything now. Ill work through the tool you posted as well - thank you