Optimized UI for arch materials

[ALTO]

First of all, Happy New Year to everybody!

Thinking about the new UI, is it possible to have some presets materials (especially arch mat) with different/specific/simplified material editor?
What i'm looking for is something like these 3dStudioMax plugins: Simian Architectural Material, MDS Material or EGZ Material:



Otherwise a Wizard material creation like in Maxwell could be great.

Thanks!

[dalomar_cg]

Optimized UI for arch materials

Happy New Year to all.
We are looking to expand our material library, so in the future there will be more options as far as preset vray materials. As for the UI the changes will try to have possibly a more graphical and structured approach to making materials.

Looking at the two plugins that you posted it doesn't really seam like they are adding specific functionality, but rather putting a new interface on making materals. I can't really tell for sure because I can't see the result, but it seams as though those materials could be made using the standard Vray material (or fast sss in the wax case).

The problem that I personally see with this is that because your changing the interface to make a specific type of material (glass for instance) all that those new examples that you posted do is take out 2 seconds of setup time (fresnel reflections and a refraction layer) which if you wanted to make something that was kind of like glass, but not really, you would have problem going and making it yourself. All I'm saying is that we will rework the interface so it is much easier to work with, however, once you start changing the interface on a material type basis you begin to loose the ability for people to create materials that use all of the available features. Subsequently without the material based interface people are lost when they need to go out and do things on their own.

[joe_b]

Optimized UI for arch materials

For some users they don't need, and probably don't want, to know all the crap thats going on behind the scenes. If they just want a simple glass shader they probably only care about a couple paramaters, like maybe color or blurriness. For other, more hardcore people ( yes I'm looking at you Micha ), they want complete control over every aspect of a material, and thats fine too.

I don't know, I understand what your point is Damien, but I don't think we can completely disregard the value of having a customizable UI to fit different users needs.

[Micha_cg]

Optimized UI for arch materials



... often I thought, today I will ask for a possibilty to use self modified shaders like I know from renderman.

[ALTO]

Optimized UI for arch materials

The problem that I personally see with this is that because your changing the interface to make a specific type of material (glass for instance) all that those new examples that you posted do is take out 2 seconds of setup time (fresnel reflections and a refraction layer) which if you wanted to make something that was kind of like glass, but not really, you would have problem going and making it yourself. All I'm saying is that we will rework the interface so it is much easier to work with, however, once you start changing the interface on a material type basis you begin to loose the ability for people to create materials that use all of the available features. Subsequently without the material based interface people are lost when they need to go out and do things on their own.

Yes you're right but this is not my point!
What i would like to have is the possibility to switch between standard (for archmat templates) and advanced material interface (for other materials).
I mean, in standard interface, parameters are specifically built for the material preset, without layers, with some things hidden (because of the material type) and with some usefull sliders!
In advanced mode all vray parameters and layers are visible and editable.

For some users they don't need, and probably don't want, to know all the crap thats going on behind the scenes. If they just want a simple glass shader they probably only care about a couple paramaters, like maybe color or blurriness.

Exactly joeb!
If i have a wood material presets and i want to make some changes to this shader, i need only two slots (mat texture and bump map) and one slider to adjust the type of finish (Matte, Satin, Semi Gloss, or High Gloss) no other things are needed, and this can be done for brick, concrete, tiles etc.
For other materials like carpaint, velvet, satin, all i need is to change the base color.
etc...etc...etc...

As i said in the first post this can be done also with a Wizard creation, some preset materials with simple parameters are shown in a dialog box and then converted in the native vray material editor.

I've seen some requests like this in the VfSU Forum and i agree, "EASY TO USE" IS THE WAY TO GO!

[dalomar_cg]

Optimized UI for arch materials

First of all, I understand why having individual shaders for individual types of materials would be useful, but I think this stems from the problems within the interface as it is right now. At this point the material interface lacks a clear heirarchy of one value as opposed to another, as well as not having the best means of representing different functions (glossiness for example). If the UI was changed to something that would be much better and easier for everyone to use, hopefully people would be able to easily create the materials they need without having a secondary specialized interface.

In my mind there are two different paths. The first is make the general material interface better and to make that work well for everyone, experts and beginners alike. If after that people still feel that they would like secondary interfaces for specific material types then I think thats fine. The second path is to focus on adding the secondary material interfaces before we fix the problem of the material editor as it is now. Then we are back to square one, which is once there is a need for something that goes beyond a limited secondary interface the material editor is still cumbersome and confusing. The secondary interfaces don't really fix the problem they just put it on the back burner for a little while.

This is just the way I am looking at things now, and if I am the only one that sees it this way then we'll go ahead with lookingsecondary interfaces. I am all for making VRay easier for everyone, and if people feel that secondary interfaces are what would make that easier then it would make sense for us to support it.

[joe_b]

Optimized UI for arch materials

First of all, I understand why having individual shaders for individual types of materials would be useful, but I think this stems from the problems within the interface as it is right now. At this point the material interface lacks a clear heirarchy of one value as opposed to another, as well as not having the best means of representing different functions (glossiness for example). If the UI was changed to something that would be much better and easier for everyone to use, hopefully people would be able to easily create the materials they need without having a secondary specialized interface.

I don't know that there is a one-size fits all solution to material UI. Currently the UI simply directly relates to exactly how the V-Ray material plugins work. There is no added indirection, the users have direct access (except for a couple restrictions ). I don't know that we will be able to meet every persons needs simply by reforming to some "panacea" UI setup. The ability to customize to meet specific end-users needs could still be of significant value. I'm not saying that our UI as it is doesn't need changing- I'm just saying that I doubt we will ever have our core UI to be the way every user wants it, so allowing customizations could be of benefit.

In my mind there are two different paths. The first is make the general material interface better and to make that work well for everyone, experts and beginners alike.

That sounds good - but I don't know that we will be able to combine complete flexibility with user-friendliness. I'd love to, but I'm not sure of the logistics. Its definatly something for us to work on.

[Micha_cg]

Optimized UI for arch materials

Poping up small help texts could be nice for beginners. Important are hints for useful value ranges, if possible. For example IOR: 1 .. 1.5 .. 2.5

Also I'm not an enthusiast of sliders everywhere like the IOR slider of the screenshot example. The IOR need specific material values.

From my view Low/Medium/High (slider) makes sense for quality settings like the IM.

SUBDIVS: it's not easy to find the right value - it's dependent from the wished quality and the value of blurieness.
(Sidenote: Could it be, that the full adaptive mode is not so bad? My last tests show me, that an adaptive mode is not so much slower than manual set subdiv values. Also I see, a wrong set subdiv and the rendering is slower than in full adaptive mode.)
Back to the problem - which subdiv should be used? Idea: a global "overide local subdivs" could internal correct all subdiv values. The internal correction could base on the value of blurieness and an user input for quality - h/m/l. Like the orange bar of the screenshots. Good for choose fast preview or slow high quality.
At material level a small RMB menu could help to find recommended values. The user click with the RMB at the subdiv value and choose from - "very high, high, medium, low, very low". Than the numerical value is automatic set. But I would avoid big bars everywhere. The RMB could help beginners, experts could ignore it and it would not destroy the compact UI.

But, let's go a step in the future: No subdivs quality settings are necessary anymore. The user works with a progressiv rendering allways. I started a discussion about a new method here. But I have the feeling, the most Vray user are hardcore user. No problem to setup subdivs. No big interest to get it easier or to use progressiv methods. But I have the feeling, progessiv methods based on biased methods could be the future.
A next step after the progressiv rendering could be, the user could set a material based quality level, so that important objects are more sampled than other. The "adaptive" of the PPT is a step in this direction, but if necessary I would like to set refractive material at high sampling level and a blury car paint at low (simulate the metal flake effect).

[dalomar_cg]

Optimized UI for arch materials

As far as the little popup hints, I've seen those in certain places and if they provide enough/the right info than they are helpful. If I'm not mistaken then the popups that are there are simply the explanation from the SDK, which may not be the most helpful thing. I think an afternoon making the popups clearer and more helpful would be time well spent.

As far as Michas suggestion for handling material subdiv I think that is a great idea. The global override would be extremely useful for doing previews and not having to reset values for a final render. This is something that we could definitely take care of within our own UI. It does seam as though it would be possible to completely do away with material subdiv and have it be handled through Vray and the qmc sampler settings. Something where the subdiv are added until a solution is within the qmc noise level similar to full sampling with adaptive qmc. Maybe thats something that vlado can look into.

[Micha_cg]

Optimized UI for arch materials

UI suggestions: in light portal mode could greyed out all not active light options like invisible ... .

[joe_b]

Optimized UI for arch materials

As far as the little popup hints, I've seen those in certain places and if they provide enough/the right info than they are helpful. If I'm not mistaken then the popups that are there are simply the explanation from the SDK, which may not be the most helpful thing. I think an afternoon making the popups clearer and more helpful would be time well spent.

Yeah - the tooltips are copy/pastes from sdk comments and some are just guesses on my part which could be incorrect or poorly worded. I agree that the tooltips are our first line of defense for educating the users.

[ALTO]

Optimized UI for arch materials

First of all, I understand why having individual shaders for individual types of materials would be useful, but I think this stems from the problems within the interface as it is right now. At this point the material interface lacks a clear heirarchy of one value as opposed to another, as well as not having the best means of representing different functions (glossiness for example). If the UI was changed to something that would be much better and easier for everyone to use, hopefully people would be able to easily create the materials they need without having a secondary specialized interface.

I don't know that there is a one-size fits all solution to material UI. Currently the UI simply directly relates to exactly how the V-Ray material plugins work. There is no added indirection, the users have direct access (except for a couple restrictions ). I don't know that we will be able to meet every persons needs simply by reforming to some "panacea" UI setup. The ability to customize to meet specific end-users needs could still be of significant value. I'm not saying that our UI as it is doesn't need changing- I'm just saying that I doubt we will ever have our core UI to be the way every user wants it, so allowing customizations could be of benefit.

In my mind there are two different paths. The first is make the general material interface better and to make that work well for everyone, experts and beginners alike.

That sounds good - but I don't know that we will be able to combine complete flexibility with user-friendliness. I'd love to, but I'm not sure of the logistics. Its definatly something for us to work on.

Yes customizations seems to be the only way!



.... But i have a question (or suggestion):

Why don't look into the new RCM Material Editor used in Brazil for Rhino?
I don't like it very much, but that interface is a clone of the Max UI, i think it's already customizable so why don't work with this?

Having a common interface (simplified or not) for all plugins is the right choice, there are gazilions of users of Vray for Max (and tutorials) and we can get only benefits from that!

(mtc )

PS: yes in SketchUp this could be a problem

[merlik585]

Optimized UI for arch materials

That's a great option,I do like it a lot,and the material preview is way faster than what we have right now.Why reinvent the wheel...

Renee

.... But i have a question (or suggestion):

Why don't look into the new RCM Material Editor used in Brazil for Rhino?
I don't like it very much, but that interface is a clone of the Max UI, i think it's already customizable so why don't work with this?

[joe_b]

Optimized UI for arch materials

RCM is just a shell to put our UI into - so we would still be implementing all the functionality. The preview would be just as slow because it would still be my way of doing it - just with a different "skin". We may eventually move toward RCM anyway as an option, but our global material stuff will never be abandoned because RCM doesn't help us in any other application.

[ALTO]

Optimized UI for arch materials

RCM is just a shell to put our UI into - so we would still be implementing all the functionality.

This is what Andrew le Bihan told me at Rhino NG:

Alto

The Brazil material editor has been designed to work with any renderer, but
it will not ship as part of Rhino 4.0. It will, however, make an appearance
in the period soon after the Rhino 4.0 initial release as part of the
Brazil, as well as other 3rd party renderers - as well as possibly some of
our own.

Andy le Bihan

So maybe you can ask for more information about this.