Ethics...

[cpnichols]

Well let me say something as someone that has at some point gotten some version that have not been released in public. I guess those of you that have seen my Interiors DVD will notice that.

The released version is almost always better then the non-released version. When I get a non-released version I enjoy playing with the new features for a while but that fun dies down when find issues. My job is to report those issues as I find them. Makes my job more annoying then fun, and makes Chaos happy that people can help them find bugs. I enjoy helping them because they are great people that I like to help out. But trust me it is not always better to have a non-released verison... often it is a pain... think about the Maxwell issues from a few months back.

I often resort back to the released version when I want to use something that does not have issues.

[studioDIM]

I often resort back to the released version when I want to use something that does not have issues.

you spoiled brat!

Well, that's still a LOT more choiche than a standard paying user has available.

Me and my studio have been looking hard at some new features (to mention one, the importance sampling of HDRS) while doing some tests with synthetic skies with over 1B:1 contrast ratio.
That is because (we THINK) we found a shortcoming in the way sampling is taken (1.47.03), and both PMd and Emailed Chaos to have a newer version to be able to check it out, hence saving some valuable time of R&D, in case.
We also allotted some 10hours a week dedicated to bug hunting, and let them know about the way we'd employ our (we consider it so, well beyond money) valuable time.

Not ONE answer (to be perfectly honest, that's the way it should be as mentioned in the beta testing for 1.5 post, but nevertheless), and then a leak?

We wouldn't care a BIT about the bugs getting in our way (but we'd report them AFTER having checked they're not doubles), as long as we could try out what would be our FUTURE way of pipeline developement.

As Vlado allowed us to do with the PPT issue (check the hdr merging tool he released, buggy as it might have been), which steered the studio clean, and for good, of another competitor forever dawning on the market.

We're not dumb, nor stupid, nor newbies on the scene, and could most definitely work our way around issues, as we already do in a few cases with the current release.

The problem boils down to a choice: do we have to download a sneak peek of it from unlegit places (we'd all be smart enough to do THAT, if we really wanted, let's not kid ourselves, new "forums" or not), or can we have a "not for production" labelled point release to get to hangs with where we'll be going in a few months?

Or did we pay for a piece of software, and that is ALL about it?

This is personal a rant, agreed.

But do not make it that easy on point releases, when something as key to renders' quality is thrown in as the sky/sun, cameras and importance sampling, in a market (like Italy's, to mention one) that's SO VERY tight.


My 2 cents

Lele (NOT studioDIM)

[trick]

When you're constantly in production, it is good to get newer builds to solve problems. But that would be the one and only reason I would do so. I strive to use 1.47.03 for most of my projects, since this is the version that most people use and so problems are mostly solved faster and it won't give me any surprises. I haven't even tried any features beyond those that could solve a problem at that time. And then there is still the need for updating the renderfarm

[RErender]

Trick,

some of us like to stay ahead, to constantly progress. That is done by R&D'g new tools as they come out or are close to coming out as a beta. Like Lele we have made made many concessions in our workflow to accomodate V-Ray, render elements is a big one here. There are also some other new features that I can see adopting asap an example is the mappable dome light. Knowing which steps to take before it is time to walk is a big plus to me and others. My boss likens it to steering a very large ship, you turn the wheel but it takes a long time to come around.

For someone not pushing the boundaries I can understand why newer builds are not important, but please understand why some us just don't want to wait.

[cpnichols]

For someone not pushing the boundaries I can understand why newer builds are not important, but please understand why some us just don't want to wait.

I want my car to fly... I know someone out there is working on a way to do it... I don't care if I crash and burn, just because someone is working on it, I should have a right to use it. Traffic in LA is horrible, a flying car is what I need... it is what I deserve for having been a driver for so long.

Seriously guys... the only thing that Chaos MIGHT have done wrong was tell you that these features are in the works in the first place. If you didn't know about them, you would not care... just like any other software you use. I could blow the cover on some other software that I am beta testing, and besides me being sued a very big software company, I am sure you guys would be screaming to them how you want access to THEIR beta program.... and that your life depends on it.

[trick]

Eric,

If you're looking for certain features I can understand you. And although I'm constantly pushing boundaries, I certainly would not depend on point-releases. On the other hand I have collaegues that make features purely based on latest technology. But from my point of view - constant production on tight deadlines - I would rather spend more time pushing my artistic hand then squashing unknown releases

[RErender]

cp - I have no idea where you are coming from...

Trick - Part of the reason why I bought into V-Ray was that I was buying into the beta program, For the first few years we got point releases every month or so, two at the most. We were able to decide for ourselves when a build was production ready enough. We did not buy a finished product we bought an ever evolving one. It is now going on 9 months since the last point release for me this change in policy is hard to accept compounded by the ever shifting release date. Vlado himself said in the 900+ post and over a year old vray 1.50 thread that he would like to get us a point release, it is apearently out of his hands. I really do not think I am being un reasonable here.

[cpnichols]

I really do not think I am being un reasonable here.

Sure... I will say that your view is completly valid, but I am going to have to agree with trick too. As far as pushing boundries... I am working on a major feature film that involves millions of dollars, I am using very old lighting software to do it, it is not even multithreaded. An artists talent and creativity is the only thing that is going to seperate something from looking real or CG... so the physical sky and HDR importance sampling aint available to bail me out. So I know two things... boy that would be great to have, but I am very far from being able to use it, so I will use what they hired me to for: my talents.

BTW... I realize that this sounds harsh, and Eric... this is not about you. Maybe my own frustrations...

You just want something that was sopposed to be out by now... I can understand your own frustrations.

Man... having a rough day... at least I can vent here...

[studioDIM]

Look, it's particularly simple, and you say it yourself, cpnichols:
your company has MILLIONS of dollars.

I used to work for an oscar winning company in London for 5 years, i'm no stranger to big budgets.
Anything is wrong? get someone to paint it out.
No possible use of GI? Damn, let's paint darkening on the maps where needed.
Hey I need an ultra complex model! Yay, call the man and give him a couple of weeks, and you'll see.
Oh look, we'd really need that feature. Call on the TD to code you something.

Well, where I am now, there are no such budgets, nor timelines, nor skills.
Two weeks are all we're given, at most, to interpret, model, texture, enrich, setup and render a VERY complex model of a building from a number of points of view.
On, overall, EIGHT CPUS (modelling plus renderfarm, yes.).
An advance in a technology that was requested means a lot.
It means the morning after you can wake up to go to work, or you're left with ONLY being able to go fishing.
There's a rare few companies in Italy that do this to our level, and i assure you, working for a big architectural studio is a synonym for doing, redoing and redoing again, MUCH more than in a proper CG production environment, where directions tend to be crystal clear (maybe all the more so for the prices clients pay...).
Now, if we could use network rendering, my LIFE would get back on track, my evenings would be longer and fuller, and my sex life would restart again at my tender age.
Importance sampling might make a huge difference in the setup time of our probes, making the usage of our custom skies viable.
Or maybe not, and we'd have to set up an HDRI probe capture system to raise our bar.
Sky and sun would be extremely nice as we do architecture, not character animation, and most of the architecture we deal with is on Earth.
Hey, we learnt the trick of the gradient + directional a while ago.
Could we have something with a fuller tonal range in a fraction of the time, please?

It's called microbudgeting, and a few thousand of dollars DO mean a lot.
I have no multimillion ship i can leave at night, and safely come back to the morning after.
It's called struggle for survival, and it's all the more evident the smaller a company/market you're in.

Also, i think you're quite mislead when you treat the paying users as a pack of screaming kids (see the flying car rant above).
This isn't the only forum we frequent, nor is this the only ever piece of software we treated with.
Having the features would be a BIG boon for some, and maybe a flying car in LA would lead you to crash and burn on a building. Maybe it is afterall safer to use public transportation.
But not for everyone.

For some, a meagre 10km/h more (or 6 Mph, whichever you prefer) can make ALL the difference in the world.
And hey, in THIS case, we do not deserve stuff because "we drove for so long". We deserve it as paying customers. It's either there (for everyone) or not (aside beta testers, of course).

Of course, we still deliver as we are now.
And how we've been for a few months, too.
But as complexity scales up, and the number of overlapping jobs grows, new solutions are called for.
Can we have a few, sooner rather than later?

Simple question.

Lele (NOT studioDIM)

[rpc212]

Vlado himself said in the 900+ post and over a year old vray 1.50 thread that he would like to get us a point release, it is apearently out of his hands. I really do not think I am being un reasonable here.

Yes, please get us a point release.

Like others have pointed out when one is a small firm it is even more important to stay on top of technology. Having heard about all these "new" features coming down the pipe it almost looks like I will have to relearn Vray by the time the next release comes. So a point release would be nice to come to terms with the "new" features!

So, please Chaos, give us a point release!

[percydaman]

I thought I would throw in my few cents. I think everyone here has made good points. But for me, I dont do much 3d outside of work anymore. Its a sore spot for me, but thats another issue. But, I dont need software that makes my job harder then it already is. There's too many workarounds to bugs already in vray, too many lil things to remember. I dont need a buggy point release with features Ive done without in the past. Not if it causes more problems then it fixes.

If some of the people who have the release had different things to say, and it appeared to be a very stable release? I might want it a little more, but not enough to get too angry about it.

Vray in its current interation, gives me everything I need to do my job, and thats all I really need to know. People will always want what they cant have, your life will be alot better if you just stop stressing about it.

[Da_elf]

you guys remember a certain package called maxwell. and what happened when they put out a shoddy RC. a fire was lit that which we felt the heat over here. this next build will more than likely give a preview of what 1.5 is like. somehow after what happened with maxwell im sure the chaos boys, who have worked to have a good customer relation, will want to release a good build. everyone has built up the anticipation for this build that it would be in their best interest to do it right dont you think.

[RErender]

you guys remember a certain package called maxwell. and what happened when they put out a shoddy RC. a fire was lit that which we felt the heat over here. this next build will more than likely give a preview of what 1.5 is like. somehow after what happened with maxwell im sure the chaos boys, who have worked to have a good customer relation, will want to release a good build. everyone has built up the anticipation for this build that it would be in their best interest to do it right dont you think.

No, the difference is that Maxwell was released as an RC while it was infact a complete rebuild that had very little to do with what had been out before and should have been an alpha. It was unusable for the most part when it came out.

Lol, DaElf you sit there using the new builds for production and tell us it's not ready for us, quite comedic really.

Percy, sorry you have lost your love for 3D...

[Da_elf]

actually as a long time tester ill admit lots of times you can ignore some bugs and other times you have to go back to more stabler builds. lots of people who have tested software can tell you that.
the simularity between maxwell and this isnt the technical side of the program its the fact that people were aniticipating something good from them. and in vrays case you guys are expecting something good from vray. vlado would like to offer you something good.

[RErender]

Perhaps you should not be so quick to speak for all of them, Da_Elf...

I think you fail to understand that I/we are not asking for 1.5 just a point release to get a jump start on the technology.


Vlado's reply to a request for a recent point relese.

As for a point release, I have suggested it many times, so we will see.

Best regards,
Vlado