Ethics...

[cpnichols]

ok ok... we all know eachother by now.... some harsh words have been said... including from me... can we all just get along and have a group hug? After all... where is the Love?

[flipside]

After all... where is the Love?

Maybe that's a new feature in 1.5

[Sawyer]

I think there are valid points here - People seem to be keyed into the fact that a competitor may have a better version and it kind of seems like an exclusive thing to give a handful the upgrade and not others.

studioDIM - You say"We're not dumb, nor stupid, nor newbies on the scene, and could most definitely work our way around issues..." Well speak for yourself. Most the active people on this forum may be pretty together but I imagine that there are a lot of people who use this software and bugs will stop them in their tracks.

Ultimatly this is Chaos' call and I bet it is no different than how they have handeled upgrades for a long time. Even though we all consider ourselves Beta testers I think we know the software has seen many hours of production time before we get our hands on it. What Chaos needs to be aware of and held accountable for is that their pre-release software is making the rounds. And if they send out only 7 copies they should rethink their testers.

[Da_elf]

the group that sang "lets get retarded" might sue you for using their phrase "where is the love" (i believe thats one of their song titles hehe)

[arobbert]

I bought Vray and switched from final render 2 years ago specifically because of DR and fast GI. I remember perpetual patches for FR and disgruntled rants on the forum. Vray looked pretty good at the time. Since 1.09 they have not produced a version with stable DR that will work with VIZ (a feature that I had hoped would stay up to date). Therefore I'm forced to work in VIZ 4 with 1.09. This is OK but I would like to start using the software upgrades for VIZ that I have paid for. It's very frustrating to see all of the new features and yet the most important one for me doesn't work. 1.09 DR is quirky enough but the new builds are unusable.

While all the new features that were not originally in the offering are great, we were led to believe that sooner or later we would have a complete product. I'm a little surprised that it hasn't happened yet.

I had hoped that they would at least offer builds that would work with new releases of VIZ which they say is compatible. I feel like I have gotten a great return on my investment but am starting to wonder if it is a long term solution.

I guess if I'm that unhappy I should look at other options. It's been a very long time since I looked at FR. I wonder how that works now? I used to monitor that forum just to stay in touch. I may have to get back into it so I can educate myself about my options for better or worse. I don't think I'm that unhappy yet........

[RErender]

hmm, If I have gone to far and sound mean, I apologize, my intent is only to argue that a point release is a good and somewhat neccessary thing. Why people would argue against it is beyond me, except those arguing, that already have it. To argue that one does not want a point release because it will force them to learn new things is somewhat silly since no one will twist your arm to upgrade.

If it trully is a concern that people will be turned off by any bugs in a point release then I suggest that it be by request only BUT that requests be acknowledge and honored with the understanding that the requestor accepts the liabilities.

[Dynedain]

If it trully is a concern that people will be turned off by any bugs in a point release then I suggest that it be by request only BUT that requests be acknowledge and honored with the understanding that the requestor accepts the liabilities.

I think this is the strongest point. Quite a few of us have sent emails to Chaos requesting a newer build of Vray for one feature or another, without any kind of acknowledgement of our requests. Even if our requests are denied, it is common courtesy, and of business sense, to at least notify the applicant that the request is being denied. The lack of response on the part of Chaos, paired with the long series of promises of "coming soon" builds that don't materialize within any deffinition of "soon" causes disgruntlement amongst their clients.

I still believe that what Chaos needs is a strong, published roadmap. It would give them goals and target release dates, as well as plan the direction that they can expand their products. Of course the roadmap would need to be revised every couple of months, no-one can predict the future. When I produce products for clients, I have to give them an schedule. If it becomes clear that I won't be able to meet the expectation, I inform them of the new timeframe. My clients have always been understanding and accepting of the changes in the schedule, because I keep open clear and consistent lines of communication with them, and they trust me to keep them informed.

[percydaman]

you guys remember a certain package called maxwell. and what happened when they put out a shoddy RC. a fire was lit that which we felt the heat over here. this next build will more than likely give a preview of what 1.5 is like. somehow after what happened with maxwell im sure the chaos boys, who have worked to have a good customer relation, will want to release a good build. everyone has built up the anticipation for this build that it would be in their best interest to do it right dont you think.

No, the difference is that Maxwell was released as an RC while it was infact a complete rebuild that had very little to do with what had been out before and should have been an alpha. It was unusable for the most part when it came out.

Lol, DaElf you sit there using the new builds for production and tell us it's not ready for us, quite comedic really.

Percy, sorry you have lost your love for 3D...

i wouldn't say ive lost my love for 3d, just the desire to do it outside of work. I remember the days when I use to sit at a crappy job dreaming about going home and working on 3d. Now i sit all day at a 3d job and dream about doing something else when I get home...haha

damn world of warcraft :P

[RErender]

I think there are valid points here - People seem to be keyed into the fact that a competitor may have a better version and it kind of seems like an exclusive thing to give a handful the upgrade and not others.

studioDIM - You say"We're not dumb, nor stupid, nor newbies on the scene, and could most definitely work our way around issues..." Well speak for yourself. Most the active people on this forum may be pretty together but I imagine that there are a lot of people who use this software and bugs will stop them in their tracks.

Ultimatly this is Chaos' call and I bet it is no different than how they have handeled upgrades for a long time. Even though we all consider ourselves Beta testers I think we know the software has seen many hours of production time before we get our hands on it. What Chaos needs to be aware of and held accountable for is that their pre-release software is making the rounds. And if they send out only 7 copies they should rethink their testers.

Again, no one is twisting any ones arm to install a point release, if one were released it would be each users option to use it or not. I think this mindset is in a large part responsible for the state we are in now. People who are not willing to invest the time to really know their tools whine when they break something and they do not take responsibility for themselves.

As far as how it has been hanled in the past it is much different now, in the past most builds were made available, they were segregated as "last stable build" and the others as betas.

[studioDIM]

studioDIM - You say"We're not dumb, nor stupid, nor newbies on the scene, and could most definitely work our way around issues..." Well speak for yourself. Most the active people on this forum may be pretty together but I imagine that there are a lot of people who use this software and bugs will stop them in their tracks.

I was, reread the post. that "we" meant me and colleagues at the studio.

one word: CHOICE.

Lele (NOT studioDIM)

[vlado]

I guess my point would be that if it's already floating out in space somewhere, why doesn't Chaos release it to paying users?

Because it's buggy and incomplete. Almost all features (physical camera, sun and sky, render elements etc) are now completely different. What would be the point in releasing a build, getting the customers used to it, and them changing all the new features completely? Not to mention bugs and things not working properly yet.

We do provide updated builds to people who come against a bug or problem that cannot be solved with the last official build (and see what happens... in return someone goes on and posts that on a pirate site).

The reason why these particular builds are handled differently than in the past, is that there were lots of unknowns, and the new features could change wildly between builds. We do not want to spend additional resources on supporting backward compatibility for all the little things that change. An official build should be at least comparable to stability with the current available one, and we are not yet there (although very close).

Best regards,
Vlado

[percydaman]

well...there...you...go....

[jujubee]

I think the other thing to take into factor is that you wouldn't want too many beta testers out there - mainly just the highly experienced ones that know the product very well - otherwise the developer would get flooded with things that aren't 'bugs.' It slows down progress as a whole. I think a very 'closed' beta in this situation has probably proven more effective.

[studioDIM]

Good to see an official answer on this, finally.

So, if the studio i work for asks for an updated build with a working DR, for instance, we would get one? oke:

Lele

[vlado]

So, if the studio i work for asks for an updated build with a working DR, for instance, we would get one? oke:

Would be best to send an email and we'll see.

Best regards,
Vlado