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Correct workflow if CG object integration onto backplate... ?

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  • #46
    Regarding GI, i do not know any exact specifics, as my understanding of internal rendering mechanism is limited, but i believe this is where differential shading comes to play. It should be somehow able to compute the difference occlussion or color bleeding make on the backplate. Ondra has managed to do it somehow in Corona, and judging from the recent picture you have posted, you did too.

    Regarding matte separation in reflection. I believe that transparency should be always black, to properly composite it. Refraction on the other side, should be maybe toggle-able. With high IOR materials with curved surfaces, it would be probably better to keep original refraction from render, as there's not many post processing workflows which result to matching refraction, on the other side, if IOR was something really low, or surfaces would be straight and coplanar, like car windows, then it would probably be more appropriate to propagate it in alpha and replace it's content in postprocessing too.

    So first case would be something like glass sphere, second case would be something like window, each of them requiring different treatment.

    But this whole complex thing i wrote above could be easily avoided, if there was an actual matte/shadow material, which user could set up manually, including the mapping projection method, than doing it automatically with enabling matte object property.

    It's very confusing in current state. For example even now, i am still not sure what enabling matte object does.

    Does it camera-map whatever i see through it automatically?

    Why doesn't it work in reflections by default?

    If i want to composite it in post, how do i proceed?

    How does the surface react with GI or lights?

    If i have just gray diffuse material on the matte object that has matte for refl/refr enabled, then is original gray material completely ignored, or does it still impact the result in some way?

    IMHO current solution just creates a huge space for confusion and uncertainty, like many other solutions in Vray

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    • #47
      Originally posted by Recon442 View Post
      IMHO current solution just creates a huge space for confusion and uncertainty, like many other solutions in Vray
      <shrug> This reflects my own confusion on the matter. Which is why I'm trying to clear things up for myself.

      Best regards,
      Vlado
      I only act like I know everything, Rogers.

      Comment


      • #48
        Well, i could help you clear up the confusion, and come up with some solution proposal. But i would need to get my questions answered, in order to be able to do that

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        • #49
          Originally posted by Recon442 View Post
          Does it camera-map whatever i see through it automatically?
          Yes, it automatically camera-maps the normal background. Like it was pointed out above, sometimes however, for primary camera rays the result needs to be black, so I need to provide a way for it.

          Why doesn't it work in reflections by default?
          When I introduced the "matte for reflections/refractions" option, it was enabled by default. I was asked to disable it.

          If i want to composite it in post, how do i proceed?
          It should boil down to simple regular alpha-compositing (obviously with the option from the first point added).

          How does the surface react with GI or lights?
          In the way that you see On a more serious note; generally a matte shadow is defined as the ratio of the total scene lighting at a given point and the total scene lighting without shadows (i.e. shadowedLight/unshadowedLight). This is from my experiments; no-one has actually explained this clearly and I had only the 3ds Max Matte/Shadow material as a guide back in the day. For GI, because the shadowed/unshadowed thing is tricky to compute, V-Ray uses the occlusion from the environment.

          If i have just gray diffuse material on the matte object that has matte for refl/refr enabled, then is original gray material completely ignored, or does it still impact the result in some way?
          It is ignored.

          Best regards,
          Vlado
          I only act like I know everything, Rogers.

          Comment


          • #50
            Ok,

            so my proposal would be.

            1, Add option to disable matte self shadowing. (I originally though it would not need to be exposed in UI, but then i realized many people use their actual CG objects as mattes, so it needs to be exposed in UI) - Could be named "No shadows on other mattes" for consistency.

            2, As you said, add option to override only directly visible color of Matte surface to black, for compositing. Could be named force black matte, or something like that.

            3, Some way of letting users know, that enabling matte object does camera projection automatically, and that if matte in refl/refr is also enabled, most of the properties (except reflections) from original material are ignored. This should really be written somewhere.

            This will add two more things to already big pile of buttons and checkboxes, which i am not happy about, but can't really think of any other way. There seems to be many redundant elements for artistic control, like those amount spinners, so overall it seems quite bulky.

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            • #51
              Originally posted by Recon442 View Post
              There seems to be many redundant elements for artistic control, like those amount spinners, so overall it seems quite bulky.
              Well, they are only there because people wanted them. I would have been very happy if I didn't have to add those

              The matte self-shadowing was a bug, like I noted above. It is fixed already in the latest nightlies and will soon go into the stable builds.

              Best regards,
              Vlado
              I only act like I know everything, Rogers.

              Comment


              • #52
                Hi,

                i found another problem in this messy solution.

                I was told that if i enable matte object, and and enable it to be matte for reflections and refraction as well, then source material on the object is completely ignored. That is not true, as for example Light Cache still sees the object when calculating. Therefore if i set the source material to have vivid red color, i get noticeable red spill even in the environment where there should be no red color at all.

                So i still must camera project my backplate as self illumination map for material that is applied on the ground geometry, otherwise i get significantly biased result.

                Comment


                • #53
                  Originally posted by Recon442 View Post
                  I was told that if i enable matte object, and and enable it to be matte for reflections and refraction as well, then source material on the object is completely ignored. That is not true, as for example Light Cache still sees the object when calculating. Therefore if i set the source material to have vivid red color, i get noticeable red spill even in the environment where there should be no red color at all.
                  I have fixed this as well. All in all, it would be best to get you an updated build; there's not much point messing with this in the official builds. You can email me to vlado@chaosgroup.com for this.

                  Best regards,
                  Vlado
                  I only act like I know everything, Rogers.

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Tried in Maya but couldn't get identical result

                    Hi Vlado and all,
                    I am testing the setup in Maya 2015 with 3.0 RC. If I observe correctly, the only thing missing would be the cast shadows in reflections. How did you get the cast shadows on matte surface (the table) shown in reflections? I have tried with the other 2 options "with projection mapping" and "without projection mapping" but no success.

                    Here below is the render I got with "Matte for all secondary rays" disabled.

                    Click image for larger version

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                    Click image for larger version

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                    Click image for larger version

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ID:	854202 diffuse color set to black for the base vrayMtl. Plate is plugged into self-illumination slot.
                    Last edited by jasonhuang1115; 19-09-2014, 01:59 PM.
                    always curious...

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Has this been fixed in vray for Maya too?? I cant see any "matte in refl/refr" settings, and am therefore finding it very difficult to get shadowed matte objects showing up correctly in my CG objects' reflections...

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by jasonhuang1115 View Post
                        Hi Vlado and all,
                        I am testing the setup in Maya 2015 with 3.0 RC. If I observe correctly, the only thing missing would be the cast shadows in reflections. How did you get the cast shadows on matte surface (the table) shown in reflections? I have tried with the other 2 options "with projection mapping" and "without projection mapping" but no success.

                        Here below is the render I got with "Matte for all secondary rays" disabled.

                        [ATTACH=CONFIG]20968[/ATTACH]

                        [ATTACH=CONFIG]20969[/ATTACH]

                        [ATTACH=CONFIG]20970[/ATTACH] diffuse color set to black for the base vrayMtl. Plate is plugged into self-illumination slot.
                        Hi Jason,

                        Can you post your scene file here?

                        Originally posted by AardmanCGI View Post
                        Has this been fixed in vray for Maya too?? I cant see any "matte in refl/refr" settings, and am therefore finding it very difficult to get shadowed matte objects showing up correctly in my CG objects' reflections...
                        The option "Matte for all secondary rays" was introduced in V-Ray for Maya 2.4. Which V-Ray build you are using?
                        Tashko Zashev | chaos.com
                        Chaos Support Representative | contact us

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Hi Tashko,

                          Yes i have the option "Matte for all secondary rays". Maybe thats not what im looking for..

                          Essentially all I want to be able to do, as stated before is:

                          Project a BG plate onto a ground plane (using a "vray material wrapper" with a standard "vray material" as the base shader). The base shader has the bg plate projected into indirect illumination slot, and the diffuse properties are off.

                          When i render a chrome ball over the ground plane I would expect to see the projected image reflected in the base of the sphere together with the sphere's shadow contribution.. How the hell is this done.. It should be really simple stuff but its not clear at all..

                          Can you please just go over it in a simple step by step process. This is very fundamental vfx stuff which other renderers make for less complicated. I think you would help alot of other people too if you were just to outline the process...

                          material wrapper settings are attached: as you can see in the chrome ball, if I turn "off" matte for all secondary rays then i get the projected image reflected ok, but no shadows from the sphere. If i turn matte for all secondary rays on the the sphere just mattes any reflections completely, which makes sense... So how do I catch shadows in reflections properly?

                          Click image for larger version

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                          • #58
                            A very sneaky trick that I picked up from Robert Harrington in his mya 214 course for fxphd works. If you set your ground plane to pure white, then texture bake it's material to an exr so you get whatever tint and amount of light is falling on it, you can apply your projected background texture to the diffuse channel of your material, but use a divide node using your texture baked material as the second input. It'll remove the amount of light falling on the texture and leave you with the same values as the projected textures, except it'll also allow shadows to fall on it.

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                            • #59
                              Hi AardmanCGI,

                              Could you share your scene? We can miss something form your setup and suggest something that might not work properly. Furthermore
                              into indirect illumination slot
                              do you mean the Self Illumination slot?
                              There are a lot of different approaches to integrate an object into a bg plate. Depending on the scenario and the result requested or whether Reflections/refractions are involved too, the workflow cloud be less or more complicated.

                              I have one very simple scene with similar setup. Maybe you will find it useful.
                              Click image for larger version

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                              BG_plate_Setup_Projection_Screenmap_01.zip
                              Tashko Zashev | chaos.com
                              Chaos Support Representative | contact us

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Thanks for the reply joconnell,

                                Doesnt that require you to rebake everytime you make a lighting change? And how does that work with animation? you must be baking out the whole sequence, so again, if you make a lighting tweak you have to bake the whole sequence out again. It seems like a long winded inefficient work around?

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