Important V-Ray 1.5 announcement

[muzzy]

Where were we ?

[nvanherpt]

BTW... it seems that the "other" forum was shutdown.

i don't think it's that easy, it's back

[rpc212]

I think every time these idiots put their stupid site up it would be a good idea to report them to Chaos and Autodesk and everyone else that is effected that you can see on that site. Not saying you haven't done that nvanherpt. That way Chaos and Autodesk and others can take care of them.

These crooks really hurt us all in the end because software prices will rise only hurting the legitamate users like us!

[plastic_]

I think every time these idiots put their stupid site up it would be a good idea to report them to Chaos and Autodesk and everyone else that is effected that you can see on that site. Not saying you haven't done that nvanherpt. That way Chaos and Autodesk and others can take care of them.

These crooks really hurt us all in the end because software prices will rise only hurting the legitamate users like us!

you think they don't know?
i bet vlado and team know more about cracked vray versions on the net than anyone else here.
depending where they are located, you can't do much about this sites and it's not hugely important either.
i think most people only know about this site, because it's unintentionally advertized by angry legit users, talking about it all the time.

[studioDIM]

Legitimacy is a choice.
And google is all that's needed to find cracked software on the net.
Also, i think prices go up because of market issues, rather than piracy.
I'd move the blame onto software makers, rather than "pirates".
XSI is widely available as a copied package, and still they managed to start 3Democracy, pricing it at little over 500$, Mr included.
Plus, instead of spending money on clamping down on piracy (like squeezing water between your closed fingers), they all made available tryouts/educational/free copies of the software.
Of course, as legitimacy is a choice, some users just can't stay away from a "Full Cracked version", even though few will ever use a package, any package, to its full extent...

my 2cents

Lele

[charleyc]

I dissagree with some of that, piracy is definatly an issue with software developers. Put yourself in their shoes, would you want someone, not only stealing the very thing you hope to support your company, but giving it out to all others who are interested?

XSI's price drop was most likely an attempt to gain a larger user base quickly in a market they were not gaining in...better to have a a bunch of new customers at a lowered price, then few to none at the original price. Also, the $500 version is so stripped down, one would most likely ugrade eventually. Piracy was probably not the driving factor, if a factor at all.

Oddly enough, the developers are probably not the only ones that in the end are hurt by piracy. Schools, a place where you not only can get your hands on the software, but get training as well, are less appealing when you can download a crack and a bunch of tuts and go to town. While the reality of the situation is not going to go away, don't brand it as less of a problem than it is because of that.

As far as software costs go, prices are probably set in accordance with current market value perceptions. Windows, no doubt, has more lines of code than VRay, but it cost less to own. I am sure that if there were millions of legitimate VRay users, and millions more potential users, the price could drop a lot. But that is not the case. At best there is a limited number of legitimate users/potential users in the 3d industry as a whole. If the cost of development and any attempt at profit are to be made, the prices need to be set accordingly. To me, an example of this is how max and other lower priced apps over time gained a tremedous amount of ground and several years back it forced the MUCH higher priced apps to lower their prices to compete. Their current market value dropped.

[studioDIM]

I think the issue is fairly straightforward.
Let's talk 3d Studio MAX, something i know intimately: The price is as of now one of the highest in his segment, if not the higher (confront C4D, Lightwave, and medium-sized versions of maya and xsi), while its userbase has only kept expanding (from architecture only, to games, to broadcast, and now even some smaller part in feature films.).
Who would own an unlegit copy of MAX?
A big studio? Unlikely.
A student, aged between 18 and 25, with little or no income? Most probable.
Well, back in 1995, when i passed my exam at Autodesk to become a dealer/trainer/tech support for Max 1, i was still a part-time student.
At the question:"What's your policy for us students? Any lower price?" the staggering answer from a very highly placed "official" in there was "Can't you get a cracked copy? There you have it."

Times may have changed, and sometimes for the better, but i guess they wouldn't run guns ablazing to imprison (jail, is it?) a 20 years old student that makes NO profit with it.
And he's not only learning it for himself, but he might one day help a company buy a FEW licenses of it.
Because the issue isn't about someone not buying a software because he can get it copied, and it's never been.
The issue is about people who CAN buy and will, and those who CAN'T and won't.
However many years of jail they'll do.

It is, and i couldn't agree less on it, an entirely different story with big companies. Those that make money (and often a huge amount of them) through stealing other people's intellectual property have to be caught and punished.

As for the fact that a student might learn a software through a cracked copy and some tuts, i find it pretty feasible.
Training Schools have a problem with it?
Let these kind of schools (of which Italy, for one, is full) try and raise their bar ABOVE the tutorials (as they often are limited to a declamation of a few paragraphs of the software's manual, for a silly price).
I didn't see Gnomon go broke when Alias released their "learning" version of maya: quality is the key.

And as far as becoming a runner, rather than remaining a toddler, in CG, the best thing is and always will be direct practice in the working field.
Aided as it may be.

I can't see anything good coming from this witches' hunt, especially when the promoters are fat with the money they make every day, and just hunger for more, often for less quality (max8, anyone?).
That's why i hat-tipped Vlado's comment "The cat is already out of the bag" over the issue of the lady with a forum.
If those words meant what i thought they did, well, that is class.

3rd cent

Lele

[rpc212]

StudioDIM, so what about small developers that are effected by this? To bad for them?

It is too bad for big companies, but for small developers it could be the end of business if their hard work is just stolen and passed around. The developer of PolyBoost , for example, said, "This is very bad for the future of PolyBoost.", when I informed him of the aforementioned site. So I can't agree that piracy is not a big deal, no matter who is doing it, student or not. Just because multi-million dollar companies may not mind doesn't justify it in any respect.

We have all sacrificed to buy legit copies of the software we use. How can an excuse of, "I'm a student.", make stealing ok? Ridiculous! Piracy is bad, period. And not just for developers, but those of us that are in business and make our living doing 3D. Those that can offer low prices can do so for a reason, piracy, and that effects me, my family, and others on this forum that are small business people. Pirates need to be stopped as it is not just theft from one developer, but, in economic terms, theft from the whole 3D community.

[natty]

well said rpc212! .. Ive tried to stay away from this topic as it would seem some would rather not worry about it and hope it goes away with no apparent change to anything ... sure Autodesk can afford to let the odd million copies slip through the net, but what would happen to vray in the same senerio .. for a start this forum wouldnt be here because the space it exists on has to be payed for by someone .. and so does the ever lasting development of our beloved V-Ray .. Ok if you are a student use the damn demo or free version .. if you make money from the software that you use then it is easily justified that you should pay for it ! .. theres no if nor butts .. As a comminty of vray users / developers we should cherish and protect the best bit of software you are lightly to use !!

[charleyc]

I have talked with some AME (formerly discreet) employees about cracks in the past and was surprised at some of the things they said, however, I was not mistaken into believing they were happy with it. It is an insurmountable task to attempt to get rid of piracy. But I guess my point is more of a don't think that because it cannot be stopped it is OK or welcomed by those on the loosing end. Stealing is stealing, in any language, in any country. In a perfect world it would not be, but even here in reality, it shouldn't be.

[BlueShift]

Natty, I am not suggesting we do nothing about it as a community. This was a post I was hoping I didn't have to make either. The reason I suggest silence at the outset of a discovery of such a site is that it gives the software devs a chance to pounce on the pirates, with a reasonable amount of surprise.

Its obvious that these people read this forum and it gives them the heads up that someone's out to get them, it gives them the chance to cover their tracks and hide themselves even better. Think of the whole thing as a sting op. I will not get into details, in public, of how to track these people - but rest assured its like following footprints in wet sand on a beach, just get to them before the waves have a chance to wipe them out.

The element of surprise is important for small software developers because it takes a considerable amount of time and patients to battle something like this. If not done correctly it could in fact end up costing them more money and man power.

What I think should happen is that chaos needs to setup an abuse@chaossw.com where people can report software abuses. If Chaos is worried about getting spam and hoax emails a simple form in the support section, that is available to only registered customers, would do the job. After chaos has reached a stage where they feel they have done enough against these scurvies they can have a "Hall of Shame" post in the announcements section where they make it known to the world what has transpired.

Just my two cents.


/BlueShift

[studioDIM]

: )
I started some Flame...

Let's look at it under a slightly different light: proibitionism against education.

I would agree with all that's been said above: small developers can be hurt, and badly, by piracy.

Piracy shouldn't exist at all, as it shouldn't exist thievery, corporation scandals, wars and famine.

But as far as beating it goes, my personal opinion is that it's pointless to spend millions in "safe" protections, as history teaches that they are good for naught (if it runs, it can be cracked, period.).

As i said at the start, legitimacy is a personal choice, compounded by many a factor.
There are those who can and will abide it, and there are those who can't and won't.
It's a lot better, as i see it, to grow a culture of respect for developers, and focus attention there, rather than growing a culture of demonisation of the affair.

Vray is a good software, it's availabe either as a free (if outdated) version and as a demo (with pretty much no limitation).
It's also cheap (a bit less when compounded with the host app price, but there you go), well supported and has a community that is alive.
That's why echan's attempt is destined to die out withouth even a fizzle, let alone a bang.
Chaos has in store for us paying customers a lot more, apparently, than echan (and a few others, it seems)has for the wider world.
They will beat piracy through quality, reasonable price, options and a culture of genuine support, rather than a head to head with each and every "pirate" out there.
Given time there will probably be a new version "for free" out in the wilds, and they will step up their game once more (1.5 is SO fat. what about 2.0? :P), and on it will go.

I have not been, in any situation, cherishing piracy, or even justifying it (see my previous post: you make money, you HAVE TO buy the tool that makes you make them. I myself pretty much forced my old company to buy two additional max licenses for a job that could be only done with it, no more than a year ago).

All i wanted to point out is that the phenomenon can be beaten in a few different ways, and so far, the methods adopted by, for instance, the RIAA failed miserably, only adding to the "buzz" of practicing it, rather than effectively cutting down the habit.

Like in the 30s in the US of A, banning alchool and demonising it only made the market more plunderable by the big gangsters.
Teaching people real, tangible facts, about the issue, while leaving them with a choice, put the gangs out of that business.

I understand my opinions do not sound as harsh as many of you would like on the issue, but i genuinely think alternatives are out there to beat piracy INVESTING on a legitimacy culture, rather than WASTING on catching each and every twit out there with an issue on VRay renders' brightness.

i hope it clarifies my position once and for all

Lele

[Metin_7]

I say ... V-Ray 1.5, the final release ... any news?!

Enjoy your weekend!

Metin

[jujubee]

Every time I see this thread flagged, I get unnecessarily excited and disappointed. I can't be the only one that feels this way. No offense to anyone, but can we lock it until official Chaos notice?

[instinct]

lol jujubee...i second that!